Those who were caught up to the cloud to be with the Lord FOREVER will not be overcome by antichrist, unless you are left behind

[Retrobyter]

On 5/16/2020 at 12:29 AM, douggg said:

...

David was not saying that he was going to his son in to a non-existant state which you calling "in death", when he died.     But to paradise - with totlal awareness of existance.      But no longer attached to, nor aware, of things going on this world.

Shalom, douggg.

That's an INTERPRETATION of what was said!

Look at 2 Samuel 12:23 in context:

2 Samuel 12:13-25 (KJV)

13 And David said unto Nathan, 

"I have sinned against the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH)."

And Nathan said unto David,

"The LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die (Hebrew: mowt yamuwt = "absolutely-die he-shall-die"."

15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. 16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. 17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. 18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died (Hebrew: vayaamaat hayyaaled = and-died the-boy"). 

And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead (Hebrew: kiy meet hayyeled = "that was-dead the-boy"): for they said, 

"Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?"

19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants,

"Is the child dead (Hebrew: hameet hayyeled = 'is-dead the-boy')?"

And they said,

"He is dead (Hebrew: meet [pronounced "mate"] = 'dead')."

20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.

21 Then said his servants unto him, 

"What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread."

 22 And he said, 

"While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, 'Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again (Hebrew: ha'uwkhal lahashiyVow `owd = "[have-I]-the-power to-restore-him again/ continually")? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me (Hebrew: aniy holeek eelaayow v-huw lo' yaashuwV eelaay = 'I shall-go to-him and-he not shall-return to-me')."

24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name "Solomon (Hebrew: Shlomoh = 'peaceful')": and the LORD loved him. 25 And he sent by the hand of Nathan the prophet; and he called his name "Jedidiah (Hebrew: Ydidyaah = 'beloved of Yah')," because of the LORD.

Absolutely NOWHERE in the above passage does it say ANYTHING about "paradise!" Do you know where "paradise" came from? It came from YOUR THEOLOGY!!! NOWHERE ELSE!

Time and time again, they said "the boy died!" Yes, he was "no longer attached to nor aware of things going on this world" because he was IN THE GRAVE!!! And, David said, "Now, he is dead. ... I shall go to him (the crypt where he was buried), and he shall not return to me (the living)."

[douggg]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Absolutely NOWHERE in the above passage does it say ANYTHING about "paradise!" Do you know where "paradise" came from? It came from YOUR THEOLOGY!!! NOWHERE ELSE!

Jesus said to the one thief on the cross,

Luke 23:43     And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[douggg]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, what we have is a hierarchy, if you will. God (the Father) gave this Revelation to Yeshua` the Messiah, and it is His Revelation. Then, He gave it to His messenger (which may be the same as Yeshua`); then, Messiah Yeshua`s Revelation was passed on to Yochanan (John), who in turn passed the Revelation on to the seven congregations in Asia Minor which today is known as Turkey.

"Revelation" is not that God the Father revealed information to Jesus - which Jesus was passing it all on to John.    

The Revelation of Lord Jesus Christ is the Glorious way which Jesus will be revealed to the world at his Second Coming.

 

The Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ - is the scene of Jesus appearing to the world,  the powers of heaven shaken, the comos parted like a curtain on a stage - and the world seeing Jesus before the throne of God, in blinding light, with great power and glory.

Surrounded by all the holy angels in heaven.

John was shown the events that will lead up to the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Edited May 20, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Notice that this introduction is different than verses 8 and 11. God, Yeshua`s Father, is the One who "is, was, and is to come." Yeshua` Himself is the One who "lives, was dead, and is alive for evermore." God, Yeshua`s Father, has NEVER"been dead."

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels (messengers) of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

Please understand this: The two Persons are NOT the same Person in Scripture!

God is One, but not simplistically one.     Jesus said he came forth from the Father, not as a man but as the Lord of Heaven (deduced from other text) - the Lord of Heaven is God in form who creation (the angels and such) can perceive, i.e. see and hear Him.     

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Jesus as the son of Mary, i.e. the son of Man, died on the cross, his body that of a man.      Jesus the inner person, is God, but Jesus's soul is that of the Son of Man.

 

1Timohty 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

God took steps in making Himself relate-able to man, and us to Him,  by choosing to cloth Himself in the body of a man, who man now knows God as Jesus.      Jesus is God.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The demarcation point where Creation meets the Father, is the Throne of God.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, douggg said:

Jesus said to the one thief on the cross,

Luke 23:43     And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise (Greek: en too paradeisoo = "in the paradise").

 

Shalom, douggg.

And, this too, is an assumption from one's theological perspective without an investigation into either the Greek wording or the situation that forced the word choice.

You want logic? Here's the logic in a nutshell:

First, let's look at the word "paradise," which is a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word "paradeisos," which is another TRANSLITERATION of the Hebrew word "pardeec."

3857 paradeisos (par-ad'-i-os). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise")
-- paradise.

6508 pardeec (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park
-- forest, orchard.

So, BOTH words, the Greek word "paradeisos" and the Hebrew word "pardeec," mean a "PARK!" (Specifically, it means a "park of trees," as in the word "orchard.") How does one have a "park" UNDERGROUND (as is often claimed) where no sunlight can reach?

Second, the translation of what Yeshua` actually said is not entirely accurate. That's not the fault of God's Word; that's the fault of the human TRANSLATORS!

Here's the Greek:

Kata Lukas 23:43 (The Greek New Testament)

43 Kai eipen autoo, "Ameen soi legoo, seemeron met' emou esee en too paradeisoo."

When things were written in Greek, the text was usually either written all in Greek capitals, or Greek uncials, and occasionally all in Greek miniscules. Never were the ancient Greek texts mixed in letter sizes to denote names, as we do in English today. The word "Ameen," pronounced "ah-MAIN," a Hebrew word, means "truth." So, the translation should be "And he-said to-him, 'Truth to-you I-say, this-day with me you-will-be in the park.'" 

The basest understanding of this statement is that the man would die that very day and that he would be buried with Yeshua` in the same park as Yosef's (Joseph's of Arimathaea) sepulchre was found. The man's legs being broken, the man died also that same day.

Yeshua` was making a statement that He not only KNEW WHEN the man would die (the man had no idea as yet), He also KNEW WHERE he would be buried! And, the key words were, "met' emou," "with me!" Yeshua` was saying that, in the Resurrection, He would know where to come looking for the man to resurrect him to new life.

Nothing more needs to be added.

HOWEVER, if one INSISTS on saying that this "paradeisos" is the same as the one to which Paul referred in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, then he or she has also added some problems!

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

First, there's no word for "up" in verse 4; that word, "up," was added by translators.

The Greek word so translated was "heerpagee," the aorist indicative passive form of the word "harpazoo" for the third person singular:

726 harpazoo (har-pad-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications)
-- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

The portion following the dash (--) shows the ways in which this word was translated in the King James Version: "catch," "catch away," "catch up," "pluck," "pull," "take," and "take by force." Of course, the past tense, reflexive form of "catch up" is "was caught up." The word simply means "was seized," and it was irresponsible for the translator to add the word "up," both here in verse 4 and also in verse 2. The ONLY justification for doing so is the Greek word "ouranos" in verse 2, meaning "sky." "Seized" or "snatched away" would be more appropriate choices for heerpagee's translation.

Also, this is the phrase in verse 2 used with "to the third heaven" (heoos tritou ouranou = "until a third sky") meaning a chronologically "third" sky, just as in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Thus, the whole translation of that phrase should be "snatched away until a third sky."

Second, Yeshua` was said to be "in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights." Theologically speaking, Yeshua` was about to be "in the heart of the earth" "that day!" Again, that puts the "park" in the "heart of the earth!"

Third, where do the SCRIPTURES say the "Park" is?

Revelation 2:1-7 (KJV)

1 "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 'I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhatagainst thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.'"

Thus, the "tree of life" is in the middle of "the paradise of God." And, we find the "tree of life" one other place in Revelation:

Revelation 21:1-22:5 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new."

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful."

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Thus, the "tree of life" being in the "Park of God," means that the "Park of God" is either within the New Jerusalem OR it IS the New Jerusalem itself!

However, when Yeshua` said, "This day" to the thief on the cross, Yeshua` wasn't going to the New Jerusalem just yet!

[douggg]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, douggg.

And, this too, is an assumption from one's theological perspective without an investigation into either the Greek wording or the situation that forced the word choice.

The point is that the thief continued to be consciously aware of his existence after he died.   It is not a issue of defining what paradise is.

[BeauJangles]

On 4/20/2020 at 6:10 PM, R. Hartono said:

Paul obviously said those who are alive n remain shall be gathered to the cloud, as the wise virgins told by Jesus have the oil of Holy Spirit, this debunked the pretribbers idea that  church must die in Tribulation.

"Pre-Tribbers" believe in the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church. Debunking the thought of Christians dying in the Great Tribulation. The ideology does not adhere to that concept of that at all. Is there some confusion concerning this issue?

Edited May 21, 2020 by BeauJangles

[douggg]

22 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

"Pre-Tribbers" believe in the doctrine of the Rapture of the Church. Debunking the thought of Christians dying in the Great Tribulation. The ideology does not adhere to that concept of that at all. Is there some confusion concerning this issue?

Hi Mr. Jangles,   this is good...interests:Love the Lord with all my heart and soul.

There will be saints (Christians) who will die during the great tribulation.  Persons who become Christians after the rapture has taken place.

Yes, but there will be a group of Christians who will escape the great tribulation by the Rapture.    The pre-trib theory is that the rapture takes place before the 70th week begins.     It may indeed happen that way.      But the way 1Thesslaonians5 is written, the rapture may not take place until after the 70 weeks begins.      The criteria is that the rapture must happen before the Day of the Lord initial years begin.

I call that timing view of the rapture as the "Anytime" rapture view.  

 

 

[BeauJangles]

23 minutes ago, douggg said:

Hi Mr. Jangles,   this is good...interests:Love the Lord with all my heart and soul.

Well, thanks! A formality isn't really necessary though. You're making me feel old! Just kidding. 

24 minutes ago, douggg said:

Yes, but there will be a group of Christians who will escape the great tribulation by the Rapture. 

A "group"? Hmm. My understanding is otherwise, but okay. 

24 minutes ago, douggg said:

There will be saints (Christians) who will die during the great tribulation.  Persons who become Christians after the rapture has taken place.

Yes, indeed. They will be martyred. That's not a very pleasant thought is it? 

24 minutes ago, douggg said:

It may indeed happen that way.

A lot of theories and disagreed upon aspects on that. At least we know this much. 

25 minutes ago, douggg said:

I call that timing view of the rapture as the "Anytime" rapture view.  

Fair enough. I'm a dispensationalist myself. Thanks for sharing. God bless! 

[douggg]

3 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Well, thanks! A formality isn't really necessary though. You're making me feel old! Just kidding. 

We are babe's on the doorstep to eternity.    I am 71.