Were All the commandments nailed to the cross?

[Smalcald]

Shalom,Peace,Paix,Pax,Pace .....

JESUS RULES and MARANATHA!!!!

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I am not saying that you cannot eat pork. I am not saying that Christians have to keep God's dietary commandments, or else. I will, however, defend my fellow Messianic Jews from being accused of being legalistic or "reverting to the law" simply because they choose to observe those commandments.

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You know I am not either. I don't condemn 7th Day Adventists for not eating Pork or shellfish or holding to the Sabbath either.

There may be a thread here which discusses this but I am not knowledgeable concerning Messianic Jews and their beliefs. Tell me a little if you would about the movement etc?

I ask this with respect also, but do messianic Jews accept the concept of the Trinity?

[Guest Zayit]

You are so right! If we obey these two commandments ,then we are following the 10.

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Actually, it is the other way around. We keep God's commandments in order to demonstrate our love to him and our neighbor. Loving God and loving man are defined by what we do. The commandments show us what love looks like.

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Amein! That is exactly right!

[Guest Zayit]

I don't have any problem with a person who believes pork to be an unclean food or not food as you say.  But I don't think that yoke is requirement for all Christians. Certainly within the Jewish tradition you would reject pork, but in my tradition and ethnic background pork has always been used as food.  As Paul says we shouldn't tear each other down over food, as all food and all stomachs will be destroyed in the end anyway and we will have new bodies.

I do think the above verse does clearly indicate that food itself cannot defile a man and totally within the context of what He was saying. Jesus very directly addresses this when He compares things that go into the stomach and pass out as essentially not important to your soul, but the things which come out of us such as adultery etc, are what defile us, not food, so indeed He was directly addressing within context food itself in that part of what He was saying.  I think you have to do some real stretching to find something different in that passage.

But I understand disagreement.

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Shiloh explained it well so I won't reiterate, but are you saying that there is a wall between Jewish believers and Gentile believers? That only those who are Jewish have to keep Kosher? Do you think that G-d giving us these ways for life was a yoke? Do you really believe his laws are not good but a yoke? The Yoke was the extraneous laws that Yeshua was speaking about to the Men who made accusations about the talmidim ( apostles) not washing their hands before they ate kosher food. Now while it is very good to wash your hands before you touch food and put it into your mouth it is not a part of G-ds law, it was an added law, and there were certain rituals that still exist today that really put yokes on you such as you can't even cook dairy in the same pan as meat, or store them in the same refridgerator, those are yokes, my man, not what G-d has given us as a way for LIFE.

Not eating Pork is not a Jewish Tradition, see this is part of the concept of taking the faith in Yeshua and separating it from who he is an was and doing away with anything Jewish. It is not Jewish, it is part of the same law Love the L-RD your G-d with all your heart and strength and mind and love your neighbor as yourself! It was for G-ds people, those born into the house of Israel and those who joined themselves to it. What does grafted in, mean to you?

Your traditions over what you call Jewish tradition? Makes no sense. I am not trying to tear you down but to shatter misconceptions. Yes we may have new bodies, but those new bodies will still be able to eat, and I can guarantee, GUARANTEE that we will not be eating what He calls unclean, especailly Pork in the new Kingdom.

Smalcald, you still don't understand the passage do you? Nothing that is food can defile you because the L-RD called it food. They were having a problem with the improper ( in their eyes) preparation to eat the food, not the food itself. Believe me, if Yeshua was declairing that you could eat anything there would be pages and pages of Pharasitical rebuttal! You can count on that, AND, more importantlly , Yeshua would be telling them it was alright to sin, that is go against the law he gave to Moses and thus he would not and could not have been the True Messiah.

[Guest Zayit]

Let me use the same bible translation you did ( and I won't even address the problems with that ) and show you where the true emphasis should be.

Mark 7 (New King James Version)

New King James Version (NKJV)

Copyright

[Guest Zayit]

I think that I need to make the distinction between God's ceremonial commandments, and His ethical commandments.  I am not applying my views to dietary commandments, or the ceremonial commandments either.

The aspect of the Torah that had to be "satisfied" was met in Jesus' sinless life.  Jesus met the demands of the Torah's righteousness, and his sacrificed satisfied the demands of God's justice.  That does not remove God's demands as far as our moral ethical life is concerned.  It makes us more responsible to live uprightly not less.

The Torah says that we are to love God with all of our heart, soul and strength.  We are to love our neighbor as ourselves.  The other commandments tell us how that is done. The New Testament is an augmentation of God's Torah, not an abrogation.  It shows how to observe God's commandments in a better way.  Jesus came to bring a more full expression of God's commandments. 

Grace is not antagonistic to God's commandments.  Grace does not set aside our need to obey.  If there are no commandments, there is no sin.  If there is no sin, there is no need for grace.  Torah and Grace are two wings of the same bird. Torah is God's instruction on how to live. Grace is the ability to meet those demands, and it is the mercy to forgive when fall short of God's demands. We are not saved by following God's commandments, but our willingness or lack there of demonstrates the depth of our relationship with God. 

I am not saying that you cannot eat pork. I am not saying that Christians have to keep God's dietary commandments, or else.  I will, however, defend my fellow Messianic Jews from being accused of being legalistic or "reverting to the law" simply because they choose to observe those commandments.

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Well said!

[Guest shiloh357]

I ask this with respect also, but do messianic Jews accept the concept of the Trinity?

Mainstream Messianic Judaism does. There are some individual Messianic Jews in splinter groups who do not.

I am one who does. We use the term "echad" to demonstrate the Trinity. "Hear O Yisrael!! The Lord your God, the Lord is ONE" (echad). Echad means "one" in the sense that a man and woman become "one" flesh, or in the sense of a cluster of grapes in this particular passage. God is the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. They are echad, "one." One God in three distinct persons.

[Smalcald]

No you guys are twisting and turning in the wind on this one.

Jesus clearly said that any and all food that goes into the stomach cannot defile a man, in fact the verse in Mark said, "thus purifying ALL foods". So know because you see that, you have to twist and turn and say well gee pork or shellfish or whatever our traditions hold are not food, talk about stretching.

Christ changed and modified many many mosaic laws, consider divorce, which He directly changed, consider adultery, which He directly changed in that it comes from the heart. The Mosaic Law was to help lead the Jews to Christ, but that law was not complete, Christ shows us the way. Indeed we have a true and very difficult path of true Christian morality laid out by Christ and it is totally contained in the New Testament, not the Old Testament. Jesus is the completion and author of the Old Testament; I will take His word first.

He set the true law straight, the spirit of the law versus self-justification and a feeling of self-righteousness brought about through the outward show.

But I respect your choice to follow these traditions, but they are not traditions laid down by Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus clearly said that any and all food that goes into the stomach cannot defile a man, in fact the verse in Mark said, "thus purifying ALL foods". So know because you see that, you have to twist and turn and say well gee pork or shellfish or whatever our traditions hold are not food, talk about stretching.

That is false.

Food is defined in Deut 14 and Lev. 11. You are free in Christ to eat what is not food if you wish, but Jesus was not talking about pork, he was not talking about shellfish, He was talking about food.

The problem is that you want to ignore the context and subject matter of the passage. You cannot isolate verses 18 and 19 as stand alone statements. They were part of a larger narrative and dialogue. Nowhere were the OT dietary commandments mentioned the chapter you cite. They were not talking about God's commandments. They were talking about Rabbinic prescriptions. Jesus said that there was no way that any food could spiritually defile a man. He was debunking the Rabbinic myth food could be defiled with unwashed hands and thereby defile man.

To prove my point, here is what Jesus said in Matthew about eating with unwashed hands. Notice in particular, the last verse:

And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. (Matthew 15:16-20)

That was the same story. The Pharisess were wanting to know why the disciples were eating with unwashed hands. Jesus' point was not concerning ALL food. Rather it was about food eaten with unwahsed hands.

You are trying to address an issue that was not being dealth with in that passage in Mark. The issue I am raising with you is not whether or not we should eat pork. I stand against any compulsory observance of tradition. The problem I have with what you are saying is that it is hermeneutically weak. My point is that you could have found a better chapter or passage to make your point. This passage does not speak to OT dietary commandments and is the wrong passage to use for the purpose of defending Christian liberty.

Christ changed and modified many many mosaic laws, consider divorce, which He directly changed, consider adultery, which He directly changed in that it comes from the heart. The Mosaic Law was to help lead the Jews to Christ, but that law was not complete, Christ shows us the way. Indeed we have a true and very difficult path of true Christian morality laid out by Christ and it is totally contained in the New Testament, not the Old Testament. Jesus is the completion and author of the Old Testament; I will take His word first.

Jesus did not change anything except the Sacrificial system. As for adultery, and such, Jesus did not change them. What Jesus did, was restore what had been perverted and misapplied by the Rabbis. Jesus did not change what the OT said about adultery, He augmented it by restoring to the people the true understanding that lust was the seed of adultery and therefore adultery begins in the heart long before it is carried out in the flesh. He made the same observation about murder.

Jesus was not an antagonist to God's Laws. God's Laws are perfect; they do not need to be set aside or abrogated. The problem has always been with man, and the commandments. Jesus brought the full expression of the Torah to bear upon Rabbinic prescriptions that were being hypocritically and cruelly applied by irresponsible and incompetent Rabbis. Jesus was not anti-Torah. He was the most Torah observant Jew that ever lived.

[Guest Zayit]

Smalcald, did you even read my post?

Let me ask you this, if, as you say Jesus declared everything clean ( meaning you could eat pork, lobster, catfish, skunks, rabbits, eagles, etc) then why does Peter say directly to the L-RD in heaven Approximately 40+ AD (In the book of the Acts ) that he has never in his life eaten anything unclean? He thought the L-RD was telling him to eat of every creature, yet he said he never had and he was still making a distinction between clean and unclean, food and non foods.

[Guest Zayit]

Shalom,Peace,Paix,Pax,Pace .....

JESUS RULES and MARANATHA!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not saying that you cannot eat pork. I am not saying that Christians have to keep God's dietary commandments, or else. I will, however, defend my fellow Messianic Jews from being accused of being legalistic or "reverting to the law" simply because they choose to observe those commandments.

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You know I am not either. I don't condemn 7th Day Adventists for not eating Pork or shellfish or holding to the Sabbath either.

There may be a thread here which discusses this but I am not knowledgeable concerning Messianic Jews and their beliefs. Tell me a little if you would about the movement etc?

I ask this with respect also, but do messianic Jews accept the concept of the Trinity?

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Please don't confuse me with SDA's, for one, they keep the Saturday as the Sabbath, I do not. Also the only prophet that my beliefs have head over is Yeshua himself.