Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Guest ephesian]

I just wanted to say thank you sail2awe, your words were like medicine to my soul. Butero, i apologize for dumping on you. I was hurting and I know I was wrong to snap at you. I noticed that there have been no more posts on this board sinc you replied to mine. Now I really feel bad. I hope it is not on my account.

[halifaxchristian]

Butero,

This probably isn't the place for me to share my heart, it seems to be a place to argue doctrine which I am lacking. I do however want to share my experience. I accepted the Christ at the age of 13 and by 16 started using drugs. This is a public forum and I will respect the fact that my life story would be offensive so I will give the reader's digest version. My life spiraled out of control and I sank to the depths of IV drug addiction and fornication. I struggled for years with AA/NA but found them to be lacking in the doctrine of the higher power. I came to Jesus broken and repentant. I cried for days and sought Him through His word for years. I stumbled with that scripture in Hebrews which said that there was no longer a sacrifice for my sins since I had tasted the truth and fallen away. I determined that I would follow Him with my whole heart anyhow "though he slay me yet will I trust him" I have been clean for 5 years now and was quite confident in His love and mercy until the other night . I read in my daily study a viewpoint which stated that it is possible to sin and grieve the Holy Spirit so much as for Him to leave "permanently". Well' I know in my heart that I sank to those depths.

I came here looking for reassurance and read your posts. You are obviously more enlightened than I will ever be and by the time I left this board, I felt alone and desperate once again. I suppose since there is no choice for me once again to return to the life that I left behind (drug addiction and fornication) as He showed mercy on me and delivered me from both. then I will have to walk confident that He was merciful enough to give me an abundant life here and when I stand before Him on judgement day; if I have nothing else to say but I have trusted in your forgiveness and I have given it my best. That will have to be enough. And if he then says "depart" then for all eternity you will have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so" and I will have the memories of the changed life I have enjoyed here to remind me of His wonderful love.

I'm going to stay the course period,

what else can I do?

the ephesian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My dear brother...my heart pains for you and bleed for you...to God be the glory friend!!! Do not believe the devils lies for a moment! You are saved and always were since the moment you accepted Christ. You were sealed by the Holy Spirit and Jesus your Intercessor has been pleading the Blood for you this whole time. It is the Holy Ghost that has purged you to bring forth much fruit and Jesus did not forsake you at all!!!

DON'T BELIEVE THE LIES.

The Scripture that says there is "no more sacrifice for sins" was speaking to Jews who were under the Old Covenant...heard about the New Covenant in Messiah...and rejected it to STAY UNDER THE OLD. The author of Hebrews was simply saying that for these jews there was no longer sacrfice for them under the Old Covenant. Please PM (personal message) me if you have question.

I have been where you are and don't give up. I fully believe that I am the worst of all Christians ever...the chief of sinners...I lie not!!!

But God can work all things together for good...and when I am weak...it makes Him that much more strong!!!

May Jesus Christ, the True and Living God, show you the mercies of David...!!!

[halifaxchristian]

Butero,

This probably isn't the place for me to share my heart, it seems to be a place to argue doctrine which I am lacking. I do however want to share my experience. I accepted the Christ at the age of 13 and by 16 started using drugs. This is a public forum and I will respect the fact that my life story would be offensive so I will give the reader's digest version. My life spiraled out of control and I sank to the depths of IV drug addiction and fornication. I struggled for years with AA/NA but found them to be lacking in the doctrine of the higher power. I came to Jesus broken and repentant. I cried for days and sought Him through His word for years. I stumbled with that scripture in Hebrews which said that there was no longer a sacrifice for my sins since I had tasted the truth and fallen away. I determined that I would follow Him with my whole heart anyhow "though he slay me yet will I trust him" I have been clean for 5 years now and was quite confident in His love and mercy until the other night . I read in my daily study a viewpoint which stated that it is possible to sin and grieve the Holy Spirit so much as for Him to leave "permanently". Well' I know in my heart that I sank to those depths.

I came here looking for reassurance and read your posts. You are obviously more enlightened than I will ever be and by the time I left this board, I felt alone and desperate once again. I suppose since there is no choice for me once again to return to the life that I left behind (drug addiction and fornication) as He showed mercy on me and delivered me from both. then I will have to walk confident that He was merciful enough to give me an abundant life here and when I stand before Him on judgement day; if I have nothing else to say but I have trusted in your forgiveness and I have given it my best. That will have to be enough. And if he then says "depart" then for all eternity you will have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so" and I will have the memories of the changed life I have enjoyed here to remind me of His wonderful love.

I'm going to stay the course period,

what else can I do?

the ephesian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am glad you took the time to share your feelings in this matter. It is my belief that if a person is still being convicted by the Holy Spirit to return to Christ, there is still hope. After all, why would the Holy Spirit convict someone totally hopeless in the first place. I do believe there is a place a person gets to where they are beyond repentance, but when one crosses that line, they no longer care. God takes his hand away from them and their conscience is totally seared.

If you came back to Christ with a sincere heart of repentance, I do not believe you are eternally lost. I also take no satisfaction in anyone being cast away. I have only shared my interpretation of scripture that it is possible to lose one's salvation after having been saved. Jesus said that if we would confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That seems to be what you did. The scripture in Hebrews you mentioned is saying that if we sin wilfully after salvation they are not automatically covered. They must be confessed.

I hope that clears up what I said and I did not confuse your more. I reject the doctrine of unconditional eternal security, but not the idea that a repentant sinner can return. I made that clear in commenting on the prodigal son.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

butero...don't you see the error of your ways? teaching that you can lose salvation does not save souls but hurts them and draws them further from the Saviour.

Only love, faithfulness, and devotion from the Loving Saviour is motivation for service...not abandoment.

This is what the Word of God says from start to finish.

the sure mercies of david.

[Guest byMySpirit]

The Word leaves no wiggle room here. And to encourage the last poster, we are never, can never be lost because God abandons us. We are lost because we abandon Him.

Hebrews 6:4

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

[halifaxchristian]

The Word leaves no wiggle room here. And to encourage the last poster, we are never, can never be lost because God abandons us. We are lost because we abandon Him.

Hebrews 6:4

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thankyou for quoting the above. It supports what I said. Those who fall away can never be renewed again unto repentence and crucify Christ all over...not because God isn't merciful...but because they never lost their salvation in the first place. You can't renew something you never lost. Please read the context again and pray for understanding. God bless.

[Guest byMySpirit]

"if they fall away..."

Why would it say that if it wasn't possible? Does our freedom to choose leave us the moment we begin to follow Jesus?

BTW, are you in Halifax, NS, because that's where I live!!

[Pilgrim7]

ByMySpirit,

If verses are not very popular on this board. They tend to make the presumptuous a little uncomfortable. You will meet with much resistance here for most believe in once saved, always saved. I hope you are not easily discouraged.

You posed a good question. Why would the Holy Spirit make all these warning statements if it were not possible for it to take place? It is because it is possible and more than likely that most will not go on to make their calling and election sure as God has warned us to do.

I have posted a few 'If' verses for the sake of discussion. The serious Christian should be quite concerned with these because they are the inerrant word of God.

EZEK 18:24 But when (if) the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

MAT 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. ( who does Jesus say is the salt of the earth?)

MAT 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

MAT 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

LUKE 13:9 And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.

JOHN 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

[halifaxchristian]

"if they fall away..."

Why would it say that if it wasn't possible? Does our freedom to choose leave us the moment we begin to follow Jesus?

BTW, are you in Halifax, NS, because that's where I live!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes...God bless you brother! Maybe we can do coffee sometime???

Do believers "fall away"? Unfortunately, yes, some do. I didn't say they don't. Actually, I did many times over and again. But the Word says that these individuals cannot renew themselves again unto a saving repentance and crucify Christ again. Why? Because there is nothing to renew. We can't lay again the foundation which was already laid.

God bless.

[halifaxchristian]

My quick replies are in bold:

MAT 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. ( who does Jesus say is the salt of the earth?)

Losing our salt is does not mean salvation. And notice that is says that we are cast out and trodden under foot by MEN...not GOD.

MAT 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

This does not speak of losing salvation...I don't see how you could interpret it that way at all. When we follow Christ, we certainly must deny our flesh and walk in the Spirit. But the Word makes it clear that we can walk in the flesh after becoming disciples...and we are warned against this.

MAT 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And what are the commandments? To love God and thy neighbour...which are fruits of being saved.

LUKE 13:9 And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.

A true Christian will bear fruit one way or the other. Paul said that a particular person was at one time unprofitable to him but later that person was profitable and paul commanded a body of believers to receive him as his own bowels.

JOHN 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

[Pilgrim7]

Halifaxchristian,

Thanks for your responses. I will just look at one.

I posted this:

2Pet 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning

Edited August 27, 2005 by Pilgrim7