Mary Was Just A Woman

[Guest LadyC]

LadyC, your uncharitable post will not be answered.

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no, i didn't expect it would be. uncharitable it may be, but sometimes the truth simply hurts.

[Guest revelations]

Grace to you,

Revelations,

Jesus was fully God and fully man. Like it or not. He was Ressurected Bodily. In the Flesh. That means at the center of Heaven there sits a God/man. The only One who could purchase your soul. One who was indeed sinless.

No deeper hole here sister.   We are just having a discussion.

We are discussing the Word of God. We are discussing who gets the Glory?

In my Bible it ends with God, the Lamb, on the Throne.

The Lamb wins. 

In that scenario painted by John who was called up into heaven to write these things down(The Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ) it ends with us Worshipping God. With the whole Host of heaven saying Worthy is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of all Creation.

I am sorry, but I fail to see Mary anywhere in that scenario, Save maybe casting her crown(reward) at His feet.

God Bless you dear sister.

I stand corrected if I have misinterpretted your intentions. Please correct me.

Peace,

Dave

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Dr Luke.. i am not the one giving reverence to Mary.. i was merely quoting others. And just giving my opinion on Jesus as the flesh, and not the Spirit. I know who my Lord and Saviour is.. I know, where He is and who we will will bow down too. Sorry, but i DO read my bible. As for the like it or not.. mentioned in your quote above.. why do you make a comment like that? Like it or not.. i don't have a problem with Jesus being God.. nor being the Resurrected. I KNOW He died for MY sins too. I know i will meet Him in Heaven. God bless you too.

[nebula]

She is our mother because Jesus gave her to us at the cross.

Our sister Miriam is not our mother!

(Miriam is the more correct Hebrew version of the name "Mary")

Show me one apostolic claim to this kind of reverance to "Mary."

[Guest ChristinaJMJ]

LadyC, your uncharitable post will not be answered.

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no, i didn't expect it would be. uncharitable it may be, but sometimes the truth simply hurts.

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"Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for the reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence..." ( 1 Peter 3:15-16).

I know the Truth sister... and it doesn't hurt at all.

[Guest ChristinaJMJ]

Biblical Evidence: Mary, Paul, and "Spirits" as Distributors of Grace

Co-Redemptrix (rightly understood) is no more shocking or unbelievable than Paul in effect calling himself a "savior" and a "steward" of God's grace:

Eph 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you...

Steve Kellmeyer (from whom I got this insightful material) wrote:

Paul was a self-proclaimed steward of God's grace. A steward guards and distributes his master's belongings with equity and justice to the members of the master's household. Here, Paul claimed to be designated by God to distribute grace to everyone for God by the fact that he preached the Gospel. If Paul can claim to be a steward of God's grace through preaching the Word, then consider Mary, who preached the Word more completely, more effectively, than any Apostle or disciple who ever lived. She preached His Word in complete silence, in a stable. Through the stewardship given to her by the Holy Spirit, the grace of God came into the world for the salvation of men; wrapped in swaddling clothes, laid in a manger.

1 Cor 9:22 I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Steve again:

If Paul could claim to be a saviour, and could instruct Timothy in how to be a saviour, then Mary has a claim at least as strong as either to the same title and honor. Paul and Timothy can only claim to have preached the Word while Mary's submission to God's will actually allows us to meet Him in the flesh.

It is also to be noted that the "seven spirits who are before his [God's] throne" seem to participate in distributing God's grace as well (Rev 1:4).

If Paul, Timothy, and "seven spirits" can be so used and honored, why not Mary, the Mother of God? What is the fundamental objection, other than prior antipathy to so-called "Catholic excess?" If one objectively examines the thing itself as at least a biblical possibility, I see no problem whatever with it.

Mary's secondary (to Christ) and wholly derivative function as the Mediatrix is no more a violation of Jesus' unique mediatorship than any number of functions He sanctions and allows among His Body, the Church. We pray for each other, thus acting as mediators. One could just as easily say, "Why ask your fellow Christians to pray for you when you can ask Jesus?" as "Why do you ask for Mary's prayers when you can go directly to Jesus?" Yet God commands us to pray for one another. God is Creator, but he gives us the privilege of procreation, in childbirth and parenthood. Jesus is the "chief" Shepherd of His flock (John 10:11-16, 1 Peter 5:4), yet He assigns lesser shepherds to watch over His own (John 21:15-17, Ephesians 4:11). And He is the supreme Judge, but He bids us to judge as well (Matthew 19:28, 1 Corinthians 6:2-3, Revelation 20:4). Many other similar examples can be found in the Bible.

Furthermore, the Bible explicitly states that Christians in general are God's "helpers" or "fellow workers" (Greek, synergos):

2 Corinthians 6:1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. (cf. Mark 16:20)

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers . . .

Why then, is it unthinkable for Mary to be a "fellow worker" with Jesus (albeit in a much more extraordinary fashion)? No one claims that the above verses teach our equality with God, simply because we work with Him, and are His fellow workers. Likewise, the Blessed Virgin is in no wise equal to God in function when she is a Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix.

It is exactly because Paul was an apostle of Christ, one called and sent forth with the authority of Christ, that Paul could call himself a steward of grace.

What about the "seven spirits" of Rev 1:4 then? If they are angels, as many commentators believe, they haven't even been saved, let alone granted the status of Apostle. Yet they, too, apparently are channels of grace. In sacramental understanding, inanimate objects are channels of grace. This shouldn't be a controversial concept at all, as far as I'm concerned.

If Mary is not an apostle, then there is no analogy. Besides, if Mary is the mediator of all graces, in what sense is Paul then a "mini-mediator"?

Because he stands between God and man, as pertains the gift of salvation, and of the grace which leads to it. Is this just a quantitative argument? You only object that Mary is Mediatrix of all graces?

[Guest ChristinaJMJ]

Biblical Evidence: John 19:26-27, Revelation 12, and the Daughter of Zion: Mary as Spiritual Mother

John 19:26-27 . . . he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" . . .

It is quite reasonable to assume that in this utterance of Jesus on the Cross, more is involved than simply asking John to look after His mother. For Jesus addresses Mary first, which is odd if in fact no spiritual meaning is to be found here. John, like Nicodemus (John 3:1-15) is a representative figure in this instance: the disciple of Christ, in relationship to the Mother of the Church. As he would care for her physical needs, so she was to be to him (and all Christians) a Spiritual Mother. Neither Mary nor John are called by their proper names. Rather, they are the archetypes of "Mother Church" and the faithful follower of Christ. The double phraseology recalls the covenantal formula of the Old Testament: I will be his father, and he shall be my son . . . (2 Samuel 7:14; cf. 2 Corinthians 6:16,18, Hebrews 1:5, Revelation 21:7). The motherhood of the Church is seen in passages such as Galatians 4:26: But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Revelation 12:1,5,17And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; . . . She brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne . . . Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus . . .

John Henry Cardinal Newman comments:

What I would maintain is this, that the Holy Apostle would not have spoken of the Church under this particular image, unless there had existed a blessed Virgin Mary, who was exalted on high and the object of veneration to all the faithful. No one doubts that the "man-child" spoken of is an allusion to our Lord; why then is not "the Woman" an allusion to his mother?

This passage has traditionally had a double interpretation, which is not unusual in Scripture. The primary application is to the Church, or the people of God. But a secondary reference can legitimately be made to the Blessed Virgin Mary, according to the literal meaning of 12:5, in which she bears the Messiah, Jesus (see Psalm 2:9). As such, the passage echoes the Mary/Eve symbolism of John 19:26-27. Furthermore, the war with the dragon (identified as Satan in 12:9) recalls the Protoevangelion of Genesis 3:15 ("her seed" / "her offspring" battle the devil), and supports the notion of the spiritual motherhood of Mary. The symbolism of Mary as the Church and the New Eve was already prevalent in the early centuries of the Church. The "woman" here gives birth "in anguish" (12:2), which hearkens back to Genesis 3:16, and is perhaps an anticipation of Calvary.

Mary is the first Christian, and is the Mother of believers in the same way that Abraham is known as the Father of believers. Abraham brought about the Old Covenant (humanly speaking) by an act of faith, and Mary, as the New Eve, assents obediently at the Annunciation, thus undoing the disobedience of Eve, the mother of the human race. As the sterile and aged Sarah was to be a mother to Israel, so the Virgin Mary would become the Mother of God and of Christians. There is also a fascinating type in the Old Testament of which Mary, again, appears to be the fulfillment: the Daughter of Zion, who is the personification of Israel (the Church is the "new Israel").

The following verses are a representative sample of this typology: Lamentations 1:15*, 2:13, Isaiah 62:5*, 62:11, Jeremiah 4:31, Micah 4:10, Zechariah 2:10, 9:9, Zephaniah 3:14, cf. Revelation 21:2-3). {described as a "virgin" - * } In Zephaniah 3:14 and Zechariah 9:9, the Greek word chaire ("hail") appears in the Septuagint - the same word as that in Luke 1:28 (Hail, full of grace . . .). Chaire is used in prophecies regarding the messianic deliverance of the Jews. The parallelism is seen to be more profound by a verse-by-verse comparison of Zephaniah 3:14-17 with Luke 1:28-31.

When the Church uses the terms Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-Redemptrix it means "cooperation in God's plan of redemption, in a non-necessary, essentially subordinate fashion." In other words, God chose to include Mary in His saving Providence in this fashion. In no way does that make her divine. As I argued above, God also used Balaam's ass and spoke of possibly using rocks for his purposes. How much more the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos? She is a creature, and qualitatively infinitely lesser than God. The Catholic Church always presupposes this, and so it is irrelevant to the concerns over the Mediatrix doctrine.

[Guest ChristinaJMJ]

Biblical Evidence: Unilateral Atonement and Redemptive Suffering Among Christians as a Direct Analogy to Mary's Preeminent Role

We are all involved in redemption in some fashion. If we are all involved in this to some extent (as will be demonstrated below), why is it unthinkable that God would use Mary preeminently? There is more than enough biblical warrant to hold this view. We shall now examine the scriptural evidence for unilateral vicarious atonement and redemptive suffering among Christians. This is the parallel to Mary suffering with Jesus at Calvary, and "offering" Him in some fashion.

Exodus 32:30 . . . Moses said to the people, "You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin." {see also 32:31-32 and Numbers 16:46-48 }

Here we have an example of vicarious atonement, whereby one member of the chosen people (analogous, of course, to the Church), sought to atone for others. This concept is essentially no different than intercessory prayer. The Catholic Church simply takes it further by stating that various works of charity, as well as voluntary and involuntary suffering, are efficacious for the purpose of blessing others and atoning for their sins.

St. Paul explicitly expounds the Catholic doctrine of penance, suffering, and vicarious atonement in the following sixteen passages:

Romans 8:13,17 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live . . . and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. {see also 1 Corinthians 15:31, 2 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Peter 4:1,13}

1 Corinthians 11:27,30Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord . . . That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. {see also 11:31-32, 1 Corinthians 5:5}

2 Corinthians 4:10Always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. {see also 2 Corinthians 1:5-7}

Philippians 2:17Even if I am to be poured out as a libation upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. {see also 2 Corinthians 6:4-10}

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death. {see also Galatians 2:20}

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come. {see also Romans 12:1}

In this verse and in Philippians 2:17, the Greek word for libation and sacrifice is spendomai. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament which was the Bible of the early Christians, this term is used for a variety of offerings and sacrifices commanded by the Mosaic Law (for example, Genesis 35:14, Exodus 29:12, 38 ff., Leviticus 4:7 ff., 23:37). Most intriguing is its occurrence with reference to the Messiah, Jesus, in Isaiah 53:12: . . . he poured out his soul to death . . . It appears, then, that St. Paul is stressing a mystical, profound identification with Jesus even in His death (as also in 2 Corinthians 4:10 and Philippians 3:10 above). This comparison leads inexorably to the Catholic doctrine of vicarious atonement among members of the Body of Christ.

In some mysterious, glorious way God chooses to involve us in the very Redemption (always in a secondary and derivative sense, but actual nonetheless), just as He voluntarily involves us in His Providence by means of prayer and evangelism, and in His Creation by our procreation and childbirth. Our sufferings become identified with those of Christ (instances of the stigmata, whereby saintly persons - such as St. Francis of Assisi - actually receive the wounds of Christ in their bodies, are an extremely graphic image of this scriptural teaching).

Since we are the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27, Ephesians 1:22-23, 5:30, Colossians 1:24 below), such a "radical" convergence is not to be unexpected. For instance, when St. Paul was converted to Christ, Jesus said to him, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting (Acts 9:5). This couldn't literally refer to Jesus the Divine Person since He had already ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). Rather, Jesus meant that Christ's Church really was His Body, whom Paul (Saul) was persecuting (Acts 8:1,3, 9:1-2). Jesus also identifies the Church with Himself in Matthew 25:34-45 (25:40 - brethren. Compare Matthew 12:50, 28:10, John 20:17). Thus, Jesus' sufferings are ours, and ours are His in a very real sense, as St. Paul unmistakably teaches, particularly and most strikingly in Colossians 1:24:

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church. {see also 2 Corinthians 11:23-30, Galatians 6:17}

All of this lends plausibility to the notion that Mary can be involved in the Redemption.

[Assisi]

i'll never understand why some people put more effort into defending the RCC teachings than in defending GOD'S WORD. there is no defense for blasphemy. in or out of context, mary is not a mediatrix, is not an advocate or helper, has no power to draw one to Jesus... and she DOES get worshipped. prayers to mary endorsed by the RCC which i have quoted many times include such devotional worship. christians have only to read the morning consecration prayer, or the salve regina, or the regina calai or the memorare prayers to become totally nauseated by the blatant heresy. how can anyone POSSIBLY say mary is not worshipped and prayed directly to, in light of these prayers?

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession, was left unaided. Inspired then with confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother! To you do I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your mercy, hear and answer me. Amen

MARY DOESN'T ANSWER PRAYERS! good grief, i've never been UNDER her protection, implored her help or sought her intercession, and GOD NEVER LEFT ME UNAIDED. you stand before mary all you want. i'm way ahead of you, i'm standing before CHRIST.

Let us pray: O God, who hast given joy to the whole world

through the Resurrection of They Son, our Lord Jesus Christ;

grant that through the prayers of His Virgin Mother Mary,

we may obtain the joys of everlasting life.

WE DO NOT OBTAIN ETERNAL LIFE THRU MARY'S PRAYERS!

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy!

Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope!

To Thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.

To Thee do we send up our sighs,

mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Turn then, most gracious Advocate

Thine eyes of mercy towards us

and after this, our exile,

show unto us the blessed fruit of Thy womb, Jesus

O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

Our cries are supposed to go up to JESUS, not to mary, and it is the Holy Spirit who draws us to Jesus, not mary! THIS IS PRAYING TO HER LIKE SHE WERE A DIETY!

and last but not least, the most dispicable example of all, which is CLEARLY worship.... how anyone can be so blinded as to say this isn't worship is beyond me.

My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to Thee. And to show my devoition to Thee, I offer Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession. Amen

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First these are the Catholic Church teachings on worship.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve," says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."

266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself":

We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!

The prayers you use are not accurate and are taken from a book by Alphonsus Liguori called True devotion to Mary. What vou diden't show is the introduction which i will print here.

I avow, with all the Church, that Mary, being a mere creature that has come from the hands of the Most High, is in comparison with His Infinite Majesty less than an atom; or rather, she is nothing at all, because only He is "He who is" (Ex. 3:14); consequently that grand Lord, always independent and sufficient to Himself, never had, and has not now, any absolute need of the holy Virgin for the accomplishment of His glory. He has but to will in order to do everything.

Nevertheless, I say that, things being as they are now- that is, God having willed to commence and complete His greatest works by the most holy Virgin ever since He created her - we may well think He will not change His conduct in the eternal ages.

Mary and praying to Saints can be found clearly in the tomb inscriptions in Greek and Latin on the Catacomb of the Christians From 50 AD to 450 AD . Some of the graves that are there are Christians who heard the teachings of Christ directly from St. Peter and Paul.

Novenas to Our Blessed Mother to pray for her Heavenly intercession with Our Lord Jesus Christ date back to the earliest day of Christianity. In some of the earliest catacombs going back to the very first Century, we find images of Mary and inscriptions pleading her intercession for the souls of the dead.

Some scriptue for you.

Jhn 8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast the stone.

1Cr 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Jhn 7:51 Doth our law judge [any] man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?

[Guest ChristinaJMJ]

Assisi

[Guest Zayit]

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

The above quote is from the vatican website catechism.

Mary does not bring us salvation. Mary does not give us gifts of salvation. Mary does not hold an office of salvation. Mary is not a mediatrix. Mary is not an advocate or a helper or a benefactress. This is a distortion of Gods gift of salvation for mankind. This is blasphemy. Mary was merely a woman. Mary would be sickened to see all the worship given her that should be given to the Lord. All glory goes to the Lord, not to a mere human.

There are many other things regarding Mary that are in error. I think the above makes my point though.

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read it in context... does it say she she brings salvation?

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

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Yeshua is my Model of faith and charity. The only one I ever need!