Learn a lesson from the Great Awakening ...

[OneLight]

5 hours ago, Behold said:

You asked Alive to explain to you about John 15, so, wait for it.

Also, you are teaching that the Gospel is.....>"first im saved, and then if im obedient, and remember to repent, i keep myself saved".

That is your gospel.  Your gospel is....>"Jesus starts it, ....then i make certain i dont lose it".....

Where you have the issue in your understanding is that you dont realize that salvation completes a Person..  They are RIGHTEOUS the moment they are saved.  And its Jesus's righteousness.

You are trying to over-rule His righteousness with your behavior as the basis of what Keeps YOUR Salvation.... So, you are trying to be the basis, and that REJECTS the Grace of God.

The reality is, if salvation could be lost, it would not be lost by sinning, as the Cross has resolved that......but rather it would be lost by trying to replace the Cross with SELF EFFORT to STAY SAVED., as that is rejecting Christ, after you are saved.

You've not really considered this, have you...

Have you ever been in a relationship?  If you have, then you understand that it takes both side to make it work.  In the case of salvation, Jesus offers forgiveness.  What I offer is obedience to Him, and if I do make a mistake, repentance for being disobedient.   No matter how you look at it, it requires action from both sides.  The difference is, His action lasts forever.  I have to continue daily to check myself to ensure I am doing what is right in Him.  Even you claim that one needs to repent.

Yes, I have considered your theology, and when I was new in Christ I fell for it, but since then I have studied scripture and have rejected it due to it not lining up with all scripture.  If I just rejected anything that speaks of being cut off, walking away, etc., I'd still be part of a partial truth.

As for John 15, Romans 11 and Revelation 2&3, I asked you before I asked Alive.  Would you care to do the same and explain how it does not mean what is written?

[Behold]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

 (Romans 11:19-22) if they do not continue in Christ.  

Ok, maybe Alive is off for the evening.

So, your question is.....Romans 11 . "if the GENTILE branches can be broken off that were wildly grafted in, then does this prove a Christian can burn in the lake of fire with Jesus and the Holy Spirit in them..".

NOPE.

So, lets keep this simple..

First we have to understand that there are 3 components regarding this answer..

1. BODY OF CHRIST

2. JEWS

3. GENTILES..

So, First here is how we understand that the "Body OF CHRIST" can't lose our salvation...."Rom. 8 Verses 38 to 39. [38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is IN CHRIST Jesus our Lord."""

So, when we read in this verse of "the love of God, which is "IN CHRIST". as the context of this PLACE of LOVE....... we understand that this is talking about the love of God, which is the Grace of God that IS the Love of God that is proven by putting believers '"IN CHRIST"..   So the context is......God's love, expressed as "IN CHRIST"....= which is where we are NOW, and this is to be "ONE" with God.  We are "in Christ", where Christ is, and also exactly like Christ regarding being RIGHTEOUS...."The Gift of Righteousness'... So, that is our STANDING and our STATE as the BODY OF CHRIST.   We are Righteous and IN Christ, and the verse teaches that nothing can change this, nothing can separate the BODY OF CHRIST from GOD.... as this a SPIRITUAL Place, where we exist IN GOD, "in Christ" already and right NOW and  for all eternity.   

So, in Romans 11, you have ..."branches" that are wildly grafted in, and that is the GENTILES the verses teach.... Then you have the Jews who are the natural Branches...  So, this verse, this chapter, is talking about GENTILES, and NOT the "the body of Christ"..    And its referring to GENTILES being broken off in the sense of ALL THE GENTILES......not as a person, or as a Christian, or as a Saved Body, but, as GENTILES.... as the context is ALL THE JEWS...and ALL THE GENTILES......So, when we just read that nothing can separate the Born again Body of Christ from God , then we understand that if "gentile branches" can be separated then this is not speaking of the Body of Christ, its speaking of Jews and Gentiles.......ALL of them being grafted in or broken off.  It not speaking about individuals who come to Christ, and then that is one more in the Body.   The verse is talking about ALL the Jews and ALL The Gentiles. Its not talking about the Body of Christ..... as Romans 8 three chapters BEFORE just told us that nothing can separate the Body of Christ from God.  And did you notice that Paul explained this first....in an earlier chapter, so that you would not then get to a later chapter that is talking about Jews and Gentiles  and get confused ...??

Yet many do and many stay confused .

Edited May 18, 2020 by Behold

[Behold]

44 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Have you ever been in a relationship?  If you have, then you understand that it takes both side to make it work.  In the case of salvation, Jesus offers forgiveness.

No.  You can't compare a  Sinless Blood Atonement to getting or not getting a divorce because one of you or both of you is a fornicator. (Legit reason for divorce).

Salvation is not God's part added to your part, as you believe and teach..  Salvation is God saving you with God's own Blood as a GIFT.

Its not about you.  Its about God's GRACE and His GIFT of Righteousness.   So, if you will stop turning God's Gift of Salvation into your self effort gospel to try to not go to hell, then you are no longer denying the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Behold

[OneLight]

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

No tongue lashing necessary.

Then why continue to do so?

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

Alive will manifest here at some point and talk to you about John 15.

I also asked you before I asked Alive.  Why did you not accept the challenge?

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

What i do is just show you that you are trusting in yourself to keep yourself saved, and you then talk mostly about symbolic verses as your response.

Haven't you heard, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."?  That includes parables and symbolic verses, if one wants to dig deep enough to understand.

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

So, tell me..... Is there sin "in Christ?......and is every born again person "in Christ"?   Is there a difference?

The sin is in the man, as you very well know.  Are we physically in Christ or spiritually?  Only Jesus was sineless, not man, even when they are saved as man still has the flesh (old man) to contend with until they die and shed the flesh.

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

And can you tell us exactly how you can become "un-born again"?

God have mercy.  You asking this again?  Don't you read my replies to you, or do you just skim over them trying to find fault in my words?

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

Is there sin in "righteousness"? as every born again person "is the Righteousness of Christ".  So can sin and Righteousness co-exist?

What is the reason for repentance if it is not to have unrighteousness removed and sins forgiven?

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

And can you tell me what Sin that the Blood of Jesus on the Cross, didn't pay for already, 2000 yrs ago, if you are born again in 2020 ?

Again, you are creating yet another straw mans argument.

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

And can you explain, that as Jesus bore and became the sin of the world, why your sin is not affected ?

You building a straw man?

42 minutes ago, Behold said:

And this odd idea that you have that The Blood atonement is only as good as you are.....what makes you believe this @OneLight ????

 

Behold, I am getting tired of telling you the same thing.  When will you unplug your ears and hear what I say, or read what I say without blinders on?

Jesus salvation is perfect.  It does not depend on me to make it so, as you continue to claim that is what I am saying.  People are smart enough to see the straw man arguments you are making time and time again.

Everyone, including you, has a choice every time they am faced with sin, do they give into sin or do they obey Gods instruction? If you do find yourself in sin, the Holy Spirit will convict you and a heart of flesh will repent, asking for forgiveness, as scripture states.   Sin has a way of hardening a heart, and after awhile, the heart becomes so hard it refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit any more and goes on its prideful arrogant way.

[Behold]

24 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Then why continue to do so?

I also asked you before I asked Alive.  Why did you not accept the challenge?

 

I have answered you before about Romans 11, but i didn't try to go too deep.   So, i did answer you tonight, and when it shows up you'll see it. 

Also, you are not a challenge. This is not a debate box.     See, that the issue with you... in your mind, you are trying to win a point on a Christian forum, as if you are playing a video game against a real believer,  instead of trying to learn to know the truth that people are trying to help you SEE..

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Behold

[steve morrow]

one light and all 

PSALM 33:4  for the word of  THE  LORD  is right and all  HIS  works are done in truth 

are your works done in truth???   has  GOD  requested anyones opinion 

NOT  OF  WORKS  LEST  ANY  MAN  SHOULD  BOAST  ( CAPS  AS  ALWAYS  FOR  EMPHASIS  ONLY  NOT  YELLING )

                  *******all the words of  MY  MOUTH  are in righteousness there is nothing froward or perverse in them*******

MARK 7:7  HOWBEIT  IN  VAIN  DO  THEY  WORSHIP  ME  TEACHING  FOR  DOCTRINES  THE  COMMANDMENTS  OF  MEN ( as written in KJV )

PSALM 33:10  THE  LORD  bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought  HE  maketh the devices of the people of none effect  ( emojis ?? )

ROMANS 10:15  and how shall they preach except they be sent as it is written HOW  BEAUTIFUL  ARE  THE  FEET  OF  THEM  THAT  PREACH  THE  GOSPEL  OF  PEACE  AND  BRING  GLAD  TIDINGS  OF  GOOD  THINGS  ( as written in the KJV )

MARK 10:18  and  JESUS  said unto him why callest thou  ME  good   there is none good but one --THAT  IS  GOD--

PSALM 119:59  I thought on my ways and turned my feet unto thy testimonies 

PSALM 119:101  I have refrained my feet from every evil way that --I  MIGHT  KEEP  THY  WORD--

 

1 CORINTHIANS  1:10  now I beseech you brethren by the name of our  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  that you all speak the same thing  and that there be no divisions among you but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement 

I lead in the way of righteousness in the midst of the paths of judgement

JOB 40:8  wilt thou also disannul my judgement wilt thou condemn  ME  that thou mayest be righteous

 

PSALM 19:9  the fear of  THE  LORD  is clean enduring forever the judgements of  THE  LORD  are true and righteous altogether  --19:10-- more to be desired are they than gold yea than much fine gold sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb 

--19:11-- moreover by them is thy servant warned and in keeping of them --- THERE  IS  GREAT  REWARD ---

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

 

[Alive]

19 hours ago, OneLight said:

Then please do me the favor of addressing John 15 and Romans 11 where Jesus and Paul speak about being cut off AFTER being grafted in.  I'd be interested in know why God would graft in a non-believer.

@OneLight

Good morning, brother. I will do my best to satisfy your request.

First--as you surely know from my own threads and comments, my understanding of the 'history' of the Cross, resurrection and ascension of Christ inform me in totality regarding these things. So for me, all scripture must square up with that history. A born again individual has 'eternal Life' 'In Christ' and that my Life is now hidden in God with Christ. That relocation from the Old Man Adam into the Second New Man Adam is not something that can be reversed.

So if it appears to some that a scripture contradicts that 'reality', then there is another explanation for that scripture.

The vine and vinedresser.....

Jesus was speaking to the 12 during this discourse and it went on for a few chapters. His audience was well aware that God had often used that metaphor to describe His relationship with Israel. It is about fruit and a vine that gives branches the fruit to bear. We all know this.

I believe, in these passages in John 15--he was referring to Judas, the son of perdition in particular and using the metaphor that they all understood.

There are many passages that tell us That Jesus would not lose one that the Father gave him...those that would become 'born again' into God's family.

I believe that every born again individual bears some fruit--even if it is only the initial fruit of believing that puts them into the Cross reality. From there, the vinedresser prunes and works that branch to bring more fruit, but because that branch is a indeed a son by birth, he cannot be cut off into hell.

Matt. 21:43   “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

I think this verse is one of the keys to understand this and Romans. The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah and thus were not born again and thus cannot bear fruit--as a nation--so the Lord moved on to another group, who would believe and 'quite naturally as New Creatures, bear fruit.

The Father and Jesus was/is always looking forward to the Son, the accomplishments of the Son and the Results of the Son. He always has the Son in view; in everything He does. There is nothing of importance that does not lead to and involve the Son. And His eternal Purpose realized in His Son.

Throughout scripture there is a theme. If God's purpose is not forwarded by an individual or a group--He moves on to another person or group. There are too many to mention, but for the sake of proof--He even used a Babylonian and later a Person King to further His purpose. He moved from David to Solomon and from Moses to Joshua, Saul to David. A great many times, this principle is shown.

If a particular member of His New Creation is not bearing the fruit enough for a purpose, He will use another--always moving forward--always moving forward into the Fulness of Christ. God is always about His Purpose--His Eternal Purpose--this is what is always in view for our God.

So, a branch may be set aside, but in this dispensation of the Church Age, this is not cut off from the Family, but rather set aside as to 'Purpose', at any moment in time.

So my friend--this is my understanding in part. I hope that you and the reader are blessed and that His Glorious Purpose in Christ Jesus moves forward today--here and now.

[Dennis1209]

19 minutes ago, Alive said:

He moves on to another person or group. There are too many to mention, but for the sake of proof--He even used a Babylonian and later a Person King to further His purpose.

Very well written and explained!

I assume you may be referring to Nebuchadnezzar and King Darius, very interesting characters? 

Daniel 2:21 (KJV) And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

Our Lord even uses non-believers for His will, plan and purposes unwittingly; even Satan himself. Nebuchadnezzar's horrific actions and story is especially interesting and puzzling. The 4th Chapter of Daniel is written in the first person, apparently by Nebuchadnezzar himself, as addressed in verse number one. If this be the case, he would be the only gentile writer / recorder in the Old Testament. That in itself would lead me to believe, Nebuchadnezzar had a permanent change of heart [he believed and repented] and accepted the God of Israel as his own. Therefore; I wouldn't be surprised if we meet him in Heaven. Any thoughts?

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Very well written and explained!

I assume you may be referring to Nebuchadnezzar and King Darius, very interesting characters? 

Daniel 2:21 (KJV) And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

Our Lord even uses non-believers for His will, plan and purposes unwittingly; even Satan himself. Nebuchadnezzar's horrific actions and story is especially interesting and puzzling. The 4th Chapter of Daniel is written in the first person, apparently by Nebuchadnezzar himself, as addressed in verse number one. If this be the case, he would be the only gentile writer / recorder in the Old Testament. That in itself would lead me to believe, Nebuchadnezzar had a permanent change of heart [he believed and repented] and accepted the God of Israel as his own. Therefore; I wouldn't be surprised if we meet him in Heaven. Any thoughts?

I think we are all going to be surprised at who we see in heaven....old Neb surely learned a lesson and confessed.

Dan. 4:33 That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws. ³⁴ And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever:

For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,

And His kingdom is from generation to generation.

Dan. 4:37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.

[OneLight]

 

1 hour ago, Alive said: 

@OneLight

Good morning, brother. I will do my best to satisfy your request.

First--as you surely know from my own threads and comments, my understanding of the 'history' of the Cross, resurrection and ascension of Christ inform me in totality regarding these things. So for me, all scripture must square up with that history. A born again individual has 'eternal Life' 'In Christ' and that my Life is now hidden in God with Christ. That relocation from the Old Man Adam into the Second New Man Adam is not something that can be reversed.

So if it appears to some that a scripture contradicts that 'reality', then there is another explanation for that scripture.

 

You may say it contradicts “reality”, but it is more likely not the contradiction that is an issue, as scripture does not contradict itself, instead, it is a misunderstanding that is the root of any confusion.

1 hour ago, Alive said:

The vine and vinedresser.....

Jesus was speaking to the 12 during this discourse and it went on for a few chapters. His audience was well aware that God had often used that metaphor to describe His relationship with Israel. It is about fruit and a vine that gives branches the fruit to bear. We all know this.

I believe, in these passages in John 15--he was referring to Judas, the son of perdition in particular and using the metaphor that they all understood.

There are many passages that tell us That Jesus would not lose one that the Father gave him...those that would become 'born again' into God's family.

First, to claim Jesus was just talking only about Judas is is a serious error as it goes against the full lesson of being in Christ, who are believers in Him.  Notice that Jesus says “every branch in me that does not bear fruit He takes away” (15:2) – this cannot become singular to just Judas.  Again, we read “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered, and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”  Notice the inclusiveness of “anyone” and the personalization of the message to each believer.  Also, take notice of the polarity of who is gathered, thrown in the fire and burned by the words “they” and “them”. As for Judas, I would even seriously question if Judas was ever in Christ to begin with.  Let’s look at the message in full so the readers can refresh their memories.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.  Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.  You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.  Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.   If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.  If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.  By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

1 hour ago, Alive said:

I believe that every born again individual bears some fruit--even if it is only the initial fruit of believing that puts them into the Cross reality. From there, the vinedresser prunes and works that branch to bring more fruit, but because that branch is a indeed a son by birth, he cannot be cut off into hell.

Matt. 21:43   “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

I think this verse is one of the keys to understand this and Romans. The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah and thus were not born again and thus cannot bear fruit--as a nation--so the Lord moved on to another group, who would believe and 'quite naturally as New Creatures, bear fruit.

Here is the issue.  What we “think”, if it goes against the words in scripture, is wrong.  There are no exceptions.  We can’t just desire or think the truth away when we don’t like what it is saying, or assign another meaning to force it to fit a theology.  Clearly in John 15, Jesus is addressing all believers and He does say that if everyone who does not bear fruit, and anyone who does not abide in Him, the Father will cast them out, gather them up, put them in a fire, and burn them.  Here is the catch, the reason to be cast away falls fully on the believer not doing what they should be doing.  It is not Jesus fault, not the Fathers fault, but the believers fault – they are being held responsible for their non-actions in this case.

 

1 hour ago, Alive said:

The Father and Jesus was/is always looking forward to the Son, the accomplishments of the Son and the Results of the Son. He always has the Son in view; in everything He does. There is nothing of importance that does not lead to and involve the Son. And His eternal Purpose realized in His Son.

Throughout scripture there is a theme. If God's purpose is not forwarded by an individual or a group--He moves on to another person or group. There are too many to mention, but for the sake of proof--He even used a Babylonian and later a Person King to further His purpose. He moved from David to Solomon and from Moses to Joshua, Saul to David. A great many times, this principle is shown.

If a particular member of His New Creation is not bearing the fruit enough for a purpose, He will use another--always moving forward--always moving forward into the Fulness of Christ. God is always about His Purpose--His Eternal Purpose--this is what is always in view for our God.

So, a branch may be set aside, but in this dispensation of the Church Age, this is not cut off from the Family, but rather set aside as to 'Purpose', at any moment in time.

So my friend--this is my understanding in part. I hope that you and the reader are blessed and that His Glorious Purpose in Christ Jesus moves forward today--here and now.

As I said above, you cannot ignore the words of Jesus or assign a different meaning to fit a theology.  Jesus words are exact and perfect.  When Jesus spoke the words of John 15:1-8, He spoke the truth.  Nobody can change the meanings of His words and remain correct, no matter how painful the truth is, or any confusion in seeing how the scripture fit together.  The only way one can accept the truth in John 15 and see how it does go with Gods plan of salvation is to realize that a person is held responsible for their own actions when they refuse to obey God, which can lead to being cut off or taken away – even to having their name blotted out of the Book of Life.  Without this simple acceptance of the full truth of scripture, one is forced to conform scripture to their personal theology instead of allowing scripture to form their theology.

 

Thank you for taking the time to show us your beliefs.  Above all, I personally appreciate how this discussion is taking place, in love for each other.