What becomes of OSAS people who do not overcome?

[Don19]

4 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

 Shalom @luigi

I think your answer lies in the following verses:

Matthew 7:21-23

Matthew 25:1-12

Matthew 22:1-14 and with it Revelation 7:9 & 19:7-9

Some will be ready, some will not. Ans I'm talking about believers of course, not unbelievers who be definition will not be ready. 

A lot of the Bible talks about this division within the Kingdom. Whether it's the parables of the wheat and tares, good fish and bad fish, or all the very many prophecies of the Scriptures. The short summary is - some will be turned away from New Jerusalem with the words "I never knew you" and others will be accepted in as "good and faithful servant". Therefore, let's all strive to be in the latter group! 

I hope that answers the question you posed.

Love & Shalom 

The Bible does not talk about divisions "within the Kingdom." Quite the contrary, Jesus says plainly that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand (Matthew 12:25). Is Christ divided against Himself? No, absolutely not! As many of us as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Gal 3:27), for by one Spirit are the children of the kingdom baptized into one Body (1 Cor 12:13). This is Holy Spirit baptism, by the way, which translates us into the kingdom (Col 1:13) and seals us for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). What God seals cannot be unsealed. This is eternal security, or what's called OSAS, which is the gospel of the kingdom. Of course, there will be false professors who will be rejected, but these were never translated into the kingdom or given of Christ's Spirit (Rom 8:9, 1 John 4:13).

Edited June 1, 2020 by Don19

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom @Don19

I hear what you're saying. 

However, it you try a paradigm shift for a moment and try what I am saying and proposing the Scriptures teach, wouldn't it make sense of the Messiah’s words here:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ - Matt 7:21-23

Note:

• Unbelievers aren't being addressed here
• This doesn't concern resurrection, but entry into the Kingdom to come (New Jerusalem). 

This, with the other Scriptures I highlighted and many I haven't, seem to indicate that there is judgment in the house of God, when our time will be assessed - just like the parable of the ten talents. 

Anyway, thanks for readimg my view and sharing yours. May we continue to grow in this matter. 

Love & Shalom 

[Tzephanyahu]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

So now the question is: Are OSAS members who do not overcome their carnal inclinations, and are therefore carnally inclined to continue sinning, among those who believe in loving their neighbor (a spiritual attribute), or are they more likely to be among they who do not believe in spiritual attributes, as they more believe in carnal attributes?

Shalom @luigi

Yes it's a very interesting question. 

The way I read it, there will be two divisions of believers:

• Those who think they are ready but are not (like the church of Laodicea) 
• Those who are ready because of faithfulness (like Exodus 19 of those who prepared themselves for His arrival) 

It's interesting how the Messiah describes this division in prophecy. He discusses them being in the Kingdom but also not allowed entry into the Kingdom, as in Matthew 5:17-20

I don't think that's a contradiction but a prophecy of them being IN the Kingdom NOW (in this age) but won't be allowed entry THEN, in the forthcoming Holy City (New Jerusalem). 

This would explain the prophecy in many of His others parables, such as the wheat and tares, the dragnet etc. 

Are these the ones who are part of the resurrection, because of their trust in His salvation, but are turned away the doors of New Jerusalem? "Depart, for I don't know you" 

Consider the passage below... 

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.  Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. - Revelation 22:14-15

Who are those outside? It could be those who are disingenuous with Yahweh in their thoughts, actions and deeds. 

Again, it makes a lot of sense of Matthew 5:17-20... 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Anyway, thanks for your reply luigi. I was happy to read it. 

Love & Shalom 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Tzephanyahu

[luigi]

22 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom @luigi

Yes it's a very interesting question. 

The way I read it, there will be two divisions of believers:

• Those who think they are ready but are not (like the church of Laodicea) 
• Those who are ready because of faithfulness (like Exodus 19 of those who prepared themselves for His arrival) 

It's interesting how the Messiah describes this division in prophecy. He discusses them being in the Kingdom but also not allowed entry into the Kingdom, as in Matthew 5:17-20

I don't think that's a contradiction but a prophecy of them being IN the Kingdom NOW (in this age) but won't be allowed entry THEN, in the forthcoming Holy City (New Jerusalem). 

This would explain the prophecy in many of His others parables, such as the wheat and tares, the dragnet etc. 

Are these the ones who are part of the resurrection, because of their trust in His salvation, but are turned away the doors of New Jerusalem? "Depart, for I don't know you" 

Consider the passage below... 

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.  Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. - Revelation 22:14-15

Who are those outside? It could be those who are disingenuous with Yahweh in their thoughts, actions and deeds. 

 

I agree with your perspective about the two groups, where one group will believe themselves ready, but are not (like the church of Laodiceans); and the 2nd group who will have made themselves ready and washed their spiritual selves of their uncleanness. The first group who are disingenuous with Yahweh in their thoughts, actions and deeds, are those who will not have washed themselves of their filthy ways, and are therefore the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood, who will find themselves outside the city. The second group who will find themselves in the city are they who will have washed themselves of their filthy ways, and thereby their thoughts, actions and deeds are true from their cleansed hearts.

Peace and blessing Tzephanyahu

[Tzephanyahu]

Amen @luigi. May we be found to be counted within that second group, by His Grace. 

It's a blessing to see we share views. Psalm 133:1.

Love & Shalom 

[Quietus]

On 5/28/2020 at 9:25 AM, luigi said:

In Daniel 12:2, at the conclusion of the beast's reign, a resurrection occurs in which there are those who awake to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting contempt. As this event represents the first resurrection at the conclusion of the beast's reign, when the Lord through His saints commences to reign on the earth (Revelation 11:15), would those then who awake at this time to shame and everlasting contempt represent those who did not overcome their carnal inclinations (sins)? If not, then who?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Why do people always assume that those who believe OSAS are gleefully living in willful sin 24/7? This is such a huge misconception. 

Edit:

Non-OSAS people already adhere to putting away sins? Are you so sure? Carnality isn’t just sexual things, but putting your ego first, or engaging in petty conflict, or insulting others, being prideful, being angry with others... People that are so sure of their own righteousness are actually the most in danger. 

Anyone can “clean up their life”. Hell, even Buddhists live righteously - the only difference is they aren’t believers of Christ.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Quietus

[luigi]

1 hour ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom @Don19

I hear what you're saying. 

However, it you try a paradigm shift for a moment and try what I am saying and proposing the Scriptures teach, wouldn't it make sense of the Messiah’s words here:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ - Matt 7:21-23

Note:

• Unbelievers aren't being addressed here
• This doesn't concern resurrection, but entry into the Kingdom to come (New Jerusalem). 

This, with the other Scriptures I highlighted and many I haven't, seem to indicate that there is judgment in the house of God, when our time will be assessed - just like the parable of the ten talents. 

Anyway, thanks for readimg my view and sharing yours. May we continue to grow in this matter. 

Love & Shalom 

Yes, I agree, there is judgment in the house of God, where our thoughts and actions will be assessed.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

[luigi]

20 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Amen @luigi. May we be found to be counted within that second group, by His Grace. 

It's a blessing to see we share views. Psalm 133:1.

Love & Shalom 

Amen Tzephanyahu

[Tzephanyahu]

38 minutes ago, Addy said:

Is this suggesting that we are to become in this life SINLESS ?? I honestly have not EVER heard any Christian state such a thing until I arrived at these forums several months ago... This may not be what you are saying here... I am just wondering... 

Um, I think you have quoted what I quoted first. So I'm not sure who you are addressing. 

Thanks 

[luigi]

5 minutes ago, Quietus said:

Why do people always assume that those who believe OSAS are gleefully living in willful sin 24/7? This is such a huge misconception. 

I myself was OSAS for many years, and never when I sinned was I living gleefully in willful sin. I do, however, recognize that many other OSAS members (unlike myself) see this perspective as a get out of hell claim, without having to repent, deny, and leave their carnal inclinations, their sins behind them, and thereby do not live for Christ and in Christ. So while I would not describe the OSAS individuals who do not wish to leave their sins as gleefully living in willful sin; they nevertheless would seem to me to fit the description of those who will not have  washed themselves of their filthy ways, and are therefore the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood, who will find themselves outside the city of New Jerusalem in Revelation 22:14-15.