Are you nice and comfy in your Christian life?

[OneLight]

4 minutes ago, David1701 said:

The principle involved is that they are not all Israel who are of Israel.  They are not all born again who are professing Christians.  Loose branches can be in a vine but they are not attached to the vine and have no sap in them.  Birds can be in a tree; but they are not part of the tree.  People can be in Christ outwardly, by attending Christian meetings and naming the name of Christ, but not be spiritually attached to the vine.

Yes, once saved, a person becomes part of the Vine; but you can be in the Vine (i.e. the body of Christ) without being a spiritual part of the Vine.

The problem is, and I've seen many people make this kind of mistake, that you are assuming that the warnings, in the NT, refer to people who have been saved; but MOST of the warnings refer to people who are not saved (they might think that they are and they might be very religious).  The warnings that refer to saved people, are warnings about rewards, not about supposedly losing salvation.

The Bible is clear that EVERYONE who has been born again CANNOT return to to a life of sin and DOES overcome.

1 John 3:9 (EMTV) No-one who has been born of God practises sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 

1 John 5:4 (EMTV) because everything having been born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world—your faith.

John 15 is not speaking of Israel, but of being in Christ, a Christian.  Romans 11 speaks of Israel.

I think you are confusing being "in Christ" with sitting within a group of true believers.  Nobody that is not saved can be in Christ.  Only those who are His are in Him.

How is it that all through scripture it speaks of believers sinning, yet John says it cannot be so?  I believe John is speaking of someone who lives constantly in sin, as in making a living by robbing others, or a spouse who is constantly having an affair.  I do not see this as not being able to harden your heart toward God.  Keep in mind that Satan is roaming around like a roaring lion, devouring whom he can.  Satan cannot do this through blatant sinning, but through moving someone away from God a little at a time, like the frog in the pot where you put him in cold water, turn the burner on, and slowly cook him.  The frog does not realize his peril at all and will die.  On the other hand, throw the frog in hot water and it will jump out, escaping the death that await him.  People are missing the cunning ways of Satan in these last days because they would have to admit that they are "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked" and not "rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing" like they currently believe.

As for the "mistake" you say I am guilty of, mixing up the saved and unsaved, tell me this.  How can someone be "in Christ" and be unsaved?  They can't.  I just provided a list of parables above showing through the teaching of Christ that by the actions or non-actions of believers, there is the possibility of being cast out.  Would you care to address them also?  Would you also like to take a shot at the warnings Jesus gave to the 7 Churches in Revelation 2&3?  So you know, you will have to show how someone can be in Christ and not be saved in our replies.

[David1701]

20 minutes ago, OneLight said:

John 15 is not speaking of Israel, but of being in Christ, a Christian.  Romans 11 speaks of Israel.

Saved Gentiles are grafted into spiritual Israel.  Not only that, but John 15 was before the cross, at a time when Jesus' ministry was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Quote

I think you are confusing being "in Christ" with sitting within a group of true believers.  Nobody that is not saved can be in Christ.  Only those who are His are in Him.

I don't think you have understood the issue.  There is an outward being "in Christ" and an inward being "in Christ".  Born again Christians have both; but dead, dry, religious branches have only the outward.  They are like dead branches blown into the branches of a living tree.  They are in the tree all right but they have no life from the tree.

 

Quote

 

How is it that all through scripture it speaks of believers sinning, yet John says it cannot be so?  I believe John is speaking of someone who lives constantly in sin, as in making a living by robbing others, or a spouse who is constantly having an affair.  I do not see this as not being able to harden your heart toward God.  Keep in mind that Satan is roaming around like a roaring lion, devouring whom he can.  Satan cannot do this through blatant sinning, but through moving someone away from God a little at a time, like the frog in the pot where you put him in cold water, turn the burner on, and slowly cook him.  The frog does not realize his peril at all and will die.  On the other hand, throw the frog in hot water and it will jump out, escaping the death that await him.  People are missing the cunning ways of Satan in these last days because they would have to admit that they are "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked" and not "rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing" like they currently believe.

 

 

John is talking about a life of practised sin (i.e. a life characterised by sin).  A born again Christian CANNOT revert to such a life, because he has a new spirit that wants to please God.  He has been born again of INCORRUPTIBLE seed.  His flesh is corrupt, yes, and that is why he still sins sometimes; but his spirit is incorruptible.

 

Quote

As for the "mistake" you say I am guilty of, mixing up the saved and unsaved, tell me this. How can someone be "in Christ" and be unsaved? They can't. I just provided a list of parables above showing through the teaching of Christ that by the actions or non-actions of believers, there is the possibility of being cast out. Would you care to address them also? Would you also like to take a shot at the warnings Jesus gave to the 7 Churches in Revelation 2&3? So you know, you will have to show how someone can be in Christ and not be saved in our replies.

If a dead, dry branch is blown into the branches of a living tree, is that dead branch in the living tree?  Yes, of course it is; but it receives no life from that tree.

I'm not going to deal with all the warnings in Rev. 2,3; but I will deal with one recurring point, to show you what I'm talking about.

OVERCOMING

Rev. 2:7 (WEB) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God. 

Rev. 2:11 (WEB) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death. 

Rev. 2:17 (WEB) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes, to him I will give of the hidden manna,  and I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no one knows but he who receives it. 

Rev. 2:26 (KJV) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev. 3:5 (KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3:12 (KJV) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

---Notice that, in these assemblies, the promises referring to salvation are always to those who OVERCOME.  The question then is, "Who overcomes?".

1 John 5:4 (ESV) For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.

---The assemblies in Revelation 2,3 were, just as nowadays, a mixture of the saved and unsaved.  Every one of them who had been born of God would overcome, the unsaved ones would not.

 

[Don19]

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

You don't want to believe scripture then there is nothing I could ever say to show you your error.

John 3:16 actually would read in Greek " thus for loves the God the world so-that the Son of-him the only-begotten he-gives that every the one-believing into him no should-be-perishing but may-be-having life eonian."  The meaning does not change.

Why do you find it so hard to answer a simple question?  Do you see John 3:16 to apply only to the "elect" or is it an invitation for the whole world?

 

I explained those verses - how they look forward to the New Covenant, where God will never leave nor forsake His people, and will set aside the wrath that we otherwise deserve, punishing Jesus in our place.

Because otherwise, the Bible says that God does not change His mind.

Numbers 23:19:

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

James 1:17:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Malachi 3:6:

For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

 

If you took John 3:16 in complete isolation from the rest of the Bible, it may read like an offer of salvation. However, if you compare Scripture with Scripture, then you'll see it's no such thing.

John 17:2:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Pretty clear. No "offer" of salvation or "invitation" to it. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy (Rom 9:15-16). As many as Thou (the Father) hast given Him (the Son) will be given eternal life. Not as many as have given themselves to the Son - as if slaves own themselves that they can change masters (i.e., Jesus says that whoever commits sin is a slave of sin). Therefore, if the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed. Jesus has bound the strong man of the house (Satan) and spoiled his goods (the elect) - Matthew 12:29. No free will there. Man is a slave of sin. Thus are we translated into Christ's kingdom, and out of Satan's kingdom. Not one will be lost (John 10:27-29), and no one not included in the number of the elect will be saved. These are ordained to damnation (Jude 1:4, 1 Peter 2:8, Rom 9:19-23, Prov 16:4).

Edited June 16, 2020 by Don19

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

There is no purgatory, noob, for one to pass through to restore one to Christ, so in the parable, the branch, the person themselves, is burned. 

no one mentioned purgatory ... and certainly not in what I wrote... read the passage and apply the hermeneutic principle if the plain sence makes sense seek no other sense....

1 Cor 3:11-15

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
 

 

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Everything that is spoken of in John 10:28-30 is speaking of an external force, as if someone could come up and take them away.

It is speaking of The Persons of God and that is what keeps us not works 

Titus 3:5-8

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. If it were a necessary element of salvation shouldn't it say unto God and men?
KJV
notice the works are profitable unto men not unto God for clearly all of here and the knowledge of here and the works of here will cease in the eternal state:

1 Cor 13:8

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV

Rev 20:12-14

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV

to be even further specific Paul said this in s/Spirit
 

Phil 3:8-9

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
KJV
clearly the leading of Scripture is not to place one's values based upon anything of this world or the manipulation of such for it is written
 

1 Cor 7:31

31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
KJV
 

1 John 2:15

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
KJV

The only question remains if works and the manipulation of things here in those works are necessary component of salvation how can it be totally burned up and forgotten in the eternal state...

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

You will find that Jesus pointed out in many of His teachings that a person can, by their actions or non-actions, be rejected.

Strange how this is then... isn't it?

Matt 7:20-23

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV
 

[missmuffet]

First of all I have all I need in Jesus Christ. I am rich. He provides for me all of my earthly needs. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by missmuffet

[Alive]

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

Again, we agree.  So, what is it that you see that is contradictory to scripture?

Hey brother--just got back in.

I do not believe that is is possible for a son of God to become a non-son of God. I am familiar with all of the scripture that people use to say different.

I do not think that is what they are telling us.

I do believe that it is possible for there to be a great deal of loss and correction for a true son, but a son never loses his sonship.

[OneLight]

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

7 hours ago, OneLight said:

John 15 is not speaking of Israel, but of being in Christ, a Christian.  Romans 11 speaks of Israel.

Saved Gentiles are grafted into spiritual Israel.  Not only that, but John 15 was before the cross, at a time when Jesus' ministry was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Romans 11 speaks about spiritual Israel, not John 15.  John 15 speaks about being in Christ, which is what Jesus had been talking about for some time prior to this lesson.

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

Quote

I think you are confusing being "in Christ" with sitting within a group of true believers.  Nobody that is not saved can be in Christ.  Only those who are His are in Him.

I don't think you have understood the issue.  There is an outward being "in Christ" and an inward being "in Christ".  Born again Christians have both; but dead, dry, religious branches have only the outward.  They are like dead branches blown into the branches of a living tree.  They are in the tree all right but they have no life from the tree.

Your explanation does not fit the lesson in John 15.  Nowhere does Jesus say the branches that do not bear fruit just blew in and was stuck other branches.  That is quite a stretch there, my friend.  Let's stick to what scripture itself says.  "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.  Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away"  Notice carefully what it does say.  The Vine is Jesus, the vinedresser is The Father, the branches are in Jesus (not blown in and just hanging there).  The branches that do not bare fruit The Father takes away.  If can't get any simpler that that.

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

 

Quote

How is it that all through scripture it speaks of believers sinning, yet John says it cannot be so?  I believe John is speaking of someone who lives constantly in sin, as in making a living by robbing others, or a spouse who is constantly having an affair.  I do not see this as not being able to harden your heart toward God.  Keep in mind that Satan is roaming around like a roaring lion, devouring whom he can.  Satan cannot do this through blatant sinning, but through moving someone away from God a little at a time, like the frog in the pot where you put him in cold water, turn the burner on, and slowly cook him.  The frog does not realize his peril at all and will die.  On the other hand, throw the frog in hot water and it will jump out, escaping the death that await him.  People are missing the cunning ways of Satan in these last days because they would have to admit that they are "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked" and not "rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing" like they currently believe.

John is talking about a life of practised sin (i.e. a life characterised by sin).  A born again Christian CANNOT revert to such a life, because he has a new spirit that wants to please God.  He has been born again of INCORRUPTIBLE seed.  His flesh is corrupt, yes, and that is why he still sins sometimes; but his spirit is incorruptible.

Again, John is not talking about hardening ones heart, but repetitive sinning.  Care to show me how this applies to all the parables I listed and the 7 churches?

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

 

Quote

As for the "mistake" you say I am guilty of, mixing up the saved and unsaved, tell me this. How can someone be "in Christ" and be unsaved? They can't. I just provided a list of parables above showing through the teaching of Christ that by the actions or non-actions of believers, there is the possibility of being cast out. Would you care to address them also? Would you also like to take a shot at the warnings Jesus gave to the 7 Churches in Revelation 2&3? So you know, you will have to show how someone can be in Christ and not be saved in our replies.

If a dead, dry branch is blown into the branches of a living tree, is that dead branch in the living tree?  Yes, of course it is; but it receives no life from that tree.

I'm not going to deal with all the warnings in Rev. 2,3; but I will deal with one recurring point, to show you what I'm talking about.

OVERCOMING

Rev. 2:7 (WEB) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God. 

Rev. 2:11 (WEB) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death. 

Rev. 2:17 (WEB) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes, to him I will give of the hidden manna,  and I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no one knows but he who receives it. 

Rev. 2:26 (KJV) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev. 3:5 (KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3:12 (KJV) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

---Notice that, in these assemblies, the promises referring to salvation are always to those who OVERCOME.  The question then is, "Who overcomes?".

1 John 5:4 (ESV) For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.

---The assemblies in Revelation 2,3 were, just as nowadays, a mixture of the saved and unsaved.  Every one of them who had been born of God would overcome, the unsaved ones would not.

Yes, just skip over the real issues spoken about by Jesus to the churches.  That is usually what happens when it comes to discussing how a believer can turn from God.  It is ignored and the subject is redirected.  Nobody is even discussing how Jesus will always leave us a way out of any issue we find ourselves in.  That's not the problem at all and nobody has even suggested this is not true.  Ask yourself what it is that would even move Jesus to give such warnings and you will see what I am trying to discuss here.

[OneLight]

6 hours ago, Don19 said:

 

I explained those verses - how they look forward to the New Covenant, where God will never leave nor forsake His people, and will set aside the wrath that we otherwise deserve, punishing Jesus in our place.

Because otherwise, the Bible says that God does not change His mind.

Numbers 23:19:

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

James 1:17:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Malachi 3:6:

For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

So there is no confusion, are you really saying the below scripture really doesn't mean what it says?  We were not talking about why God changes His mind, but that He did change His mind.  Let's not get sidetracked on what the discussion is about.  I don't like rabbit holes.

On 6/15/2020 at 4:58 PM, OneLight said:

You really should do your research before making such statements.

Exodus 32:14  (NASB)

14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Jeremiah 26:19 (NASB)

19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves.”

Amos 7:3

The Lord changed His mind about this.
“It shall not be,” said the Lord.

Amos 7:6

The Lord changed His mind about this.
“This too shall not be,” said the Lord God.

Jonah 3:9-10

Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish.  When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.

Jeremiah 18:8

if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.

Jeremiah 26:3

Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.

Jeremiah 26:13

Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will change His mind about the misfortune which He has pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 42:10

If you will indeed stay in this land, then I will build you up and not tear you down, and I will plant you and not uproot you; for I will relent concerning the calamity that I have inflicted on you.

2 Samuel 24:16

When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed the people, “It is enough! Now relax your hand!” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

Jeremiah 18:10

if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.

Ezekiel 7:22

I will also turn My face from them, and they will profane My secret place; then robbers will enter and profane it.

 

6 hours ago, Don19 said:

If you took John 3:16 in complete isolation from the rest of the Bible, it may read like an offer of salvation. However, if you compare Scripture with Scripture, then you'll see it's no such thing.

You have to be the very first person I have ever come across who does not see John 3:16 as an offer for salvation.  I have to admit, I am not comfortable with your theology at all.

6 hours ago, Don19 said:

John 17:2:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Pretty clear. No "offer" of salvation or "invitation" to it. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy (Rom 9:15-16). As many as Thou (the Father) hast given Him (the Son) will be given eternal life. Not as many as have given themselves to the Son - as if slaves own themselves that they can change masters (i.e., Jesus says that whoever commits sin is a slave of sin). Therefore, if the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed. Jesus has bound the strong man of the house (Satan) and spoiled his goods (the elect) - Matthew 12:29. No free will there. Man is a slave of sin. Thus are we translated into Christ's kingdom, and out of Satan's kingdom. Not one will be lost (John 10:27-29), and no one not included in the number of the elect will be saved. These are ordained to damnation (Jude 1:4, 1 Peter 2:8, Rom 9:19-23, Prov 16:4).

I take it you are a die hard Calvinist who believes only a chosen few are offered salvation, the rest of His creation, who He created in His image, are created only for damnation.  Am I correct here or would you like to clarify your stance on salvation better?

[David1701]

6 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Romans 11 speaks about spiritual Israel, not John 15.  John 15 speaks about being in Christ, which is what Jesus had been talking about for some time prior to this lesson.

Jesus is speaking to his (Jewish) disciples, in John 15.

Regarding their fruit bearing, see the following verse.

John 15:16 (ESV) You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

There is only ONE exception to that, out of the 12 disciples (i.e. he was the only dry branch that bore no fruit) and that was Judas Iscariot (he was fore-ordained to hell, being the son of perdition).  He was an evil man, who stole money from the bag for the poor and betrayed the Lord (again for money) to the Pharisees, then had remorse (not repentance) for his wicked betrayal and committed suicide.

Judas was "in Christ", because Christ chose him to be one of his disciples, part of the band of 12; but, Judas had no life in him, he was dead as a door nail and exceedingly evil.  Of course the Lord knew that Judas was evil and chose him to fulfil the role of "betrayer", in his crucifixion.

Quote

Again, John is not talking about hardening ones heart, but repetitive sinning.  Care to show me how this applies to all the parables I listed and the 7 churches?

Everyone's life is either characterised by sin, or by righteousness.  He is either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness.  Everyone who has been born again CANNOT return to being a slave to sin, because he has a new spirit that is incorruptible and because He who has begun a good work in us, will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Quote

Yes, just skip over the real issues spoken about by Jesus to the churches.  That is usually what happens when it comes to discussing how a believer can turn from God.  It is ignored and the subject is redirected.  Nobody is even discussing how Jesus will always leave us a way out of any issue we find ourselves in.  That's not the problem at all and nobody has even suggested this is not true.  Ask yourself what it is that would even move Jesus to give such warnings and you will see what I am trying to discuss here.

I went straight to the answer, omitting the working, to save time.  I ignored nothing and did not re-direct the subject.

Overcoming is not a "way out"!  Overcoming is what God works in his born-again ones, by his Holy Spirit.  Did you not read the Scripture from 1 John that I quoted?  Everyone who has been born of God DOES overcome.  There are no exceptions.

1 John 5:4 (ESV) For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.

In other words, you are not kept saved by making yourself sufficiently faithful, or by keeping yourself from becoming hardened (these would be salvation by works); rather, you are kept by the power of God, through the faith he has given you, unto salvation.

 

[OneLight]

6 hours ago, enoob57 said:

8 hours ago, OneLight said:

There is no purgatory, noob, for one to pass through to restore one to Christ, so in the parable, the branch, the person themselves, is burned. 

no one mentioned purgatory ... and certainly not in what I wrote... read the passage and apply the hermeneutic principle if the plain sence makes sense seek no other sense....

1 Cor 3:11-15

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
 

Since a branch is a person and not fruit, and cannot be works either, what did you mean when you said "That both are passed through fire cannot be ignored"?  Where in scripture does it say a man will pass through fire?  Perhaps you can unpack your thoughts a little more so there is no confusion on what you mean?

6 hours ago, enoob57 said:

 

8 hours ago, OneLight said:

Everything that is spoken of in John 10:28-30 is speaking of an external force, as if someone could come up and take them away.

It is speaking of The Persons of God and that is what keeps us not works 

If you are going to try to hijack this thread to be another works salvation debate, I'll just ignore your posts from now on as that is something I have never ever said and am sick of people trying to twist what I say to make it look like it is.  You are better than that, Noob.  Much better.