Should christians join the police force, army, navy, etc

[BeauJangles]

6 minutes ago, whitetiger said:

Exactly. Typing in all caps is quite rude

Upping the font is considered shouting. I'd like to read some of these because they could be quality. Unfortunately for me they are a strain on my eyesight. I've got dyslexia and possible macular degeneration. It's too difficult for me to read them. 

[Gideon]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

The answer to the first question is, "Yes." The answer to the first half of the second question is, "I don't know," and the answer to the last half of the second question is, "Yes, there is a point but it should be understood the entire paradigm of a military's existence is predicated on Eden's disobedience."

 

Let me ask you a question before we continue: Am I being asked these questions because the answers are not already known and you are making a sincere attempt to know and understand the role of the military in a Christian worldview (or some other unstated purpose that should be stated so as to facilitate discourse), or am I being asked questions to which you know the answers and nothing I ever say will change those positions? 

I am sincerely trying to figure out where you stand. My first question was  " When push came to shove, was his duty to Hitler or to God?" Your answer was "yes". Can you clarify? I'm not understanding.

I fully understand that believers can be a part of both the police and the military. However, I also believe there is a risk involved in doing so. It is the same risk of political affiliations or patriotism. Neither are bad in themselves. However, at some point, a line in the sand may have to be crossed where the actions one is ordered to do, or where loyalty to ideologies or country wantcto supercede loyalty to Jesus Himself. 

I believe it is important to be aware that such a line may eventually come into view. The choice will be presented. The question will be "should we obey God or man?" I believe that for every single believer, the answer must be God.

As to God being sovereign, of course He is, but we do not  yet see all things put under the feet of Jesus.

I hope this explains the reasons for my questions. I apologize if my questions came off aggressively. That was not my intent. I hope you will forgive me. 

Gids

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Gideon

[David1701]

1 hour ago, vic66 said:

Being in the army or police force you would be expected to obey your commanding officer to refuse during active service war, could, would mean court marshal, prison and possible firing squad.

Best position has a christian don't join or take the job

Sweep the streets, go paint someone house or work in a office.

There is no chance of me working in the army (I'm too old anyway) or police force.

[Willa]

4 hours ago, vic66 said:

Yes in his position as the second member of the trinity  he will come as Lord and king,

The lion of the tribe of Judea 

But in his position as the son of man he came as, a servant,a lamb and mary's child.

Not once did he use extreme violence neither did his disciples

Are you speaking of the Christ who turned over the tables of the money changers?  If we don't discipline our children they grow up without respect for authority.  God disciplines, even scourges those He loves.  Moreover, people who have not been disciplined by God are illegitimate sons.   Personal offenses should be forgiven and we allow God to repay.  Keeping order in the streets should be done by police just as defending our nation should be done by the military. 

I want honest God fearing police.  I want people who respect our laws but who also respect people.  They use the least amount of force that is necessary; but drug crazed people who don't respond to tasing, or brainwashed mobs who are there to kill and destroy need to be brought under control or we have chaos.  We are told that because of anarchy the love of many will grow cold.  That is what happens where there is no law and order being enforced.  I don't think they will listen to the Gospel of love if they are so rebellious they have no respect for our laws.    

People or children who are not disciplined have no respect for our laws or God's law. We all need to have limits and we need them to be enforced.  The proud and rebellious need to be subdued.  God opposes anarchy.  In the Old Testament people were most often stoned to death, or practiced an eye for an eye.  That was how they enforced their law.  They took the cases before a judge and the law was enforced.

 1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,1Ti 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

[Willa]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

War is sin. Even when there is a clear moral side fighting a clear immoral side it is only a manifestation of sin's occurrence in creation. Otherwise, there'd be no war and no warrant for it. No need for soldiers (marines, sailors, etc.) to execute it. 

 

Did God sin when He told the children of Israel to go into the promised land and kill all the inhabitants as well as their livestock?  Did they sin when they obeyed God?

[Gideon]

17 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Certainly these kinds of decisions occur in every individual's lives but 1) they don't occur in the same way for those not in military service and 2) they don't occur in the lives of most of those who serve. 

You're arguing two different sets of minority conditions. 

We don't set sound thought, sound doctrine, nor sound practice on minority occurrences. Neither do we hyperbolize the minority condition to over-generalize and say all military service is ungodly. That's a construction error (from part to whole). 

 

 

Scripturally, war would not exist without Jude 1:6 and Genesis 3:7. Once the breach of sin is made then sin itself becomes a tool in God's purpose; none other's. God uses war for many reasons while men think they are the ones waging it. God used war to clean out the Promised Land and in so doing God used His chosen Holy People to kill millions. Some folks think this is murder because they define murder as the unjust killing of another against his or her will but from God's pov your existence should have been eradicated at Genesis 3:7. And quite justly so. It's only in our hubris we re-define what constitutes "moral" self-aggrandize and self-deify. It's just more sin. God used the Hebrews to clean out the Promised Land. Then He took those covenant-breakers and He used another army to judge them for their covenant-breaking and clean them out. He did that a couple of times and those soldiers that looked their opponent in the eye as they stuck that sword inside and spewed the opponents entrails onto themselves was both sinning and doing God's will to address sin in an already sinful world as what we call history marched on in God's purpose toward to the very violent and deadly sin-filled redemptive victory at Calvary. Now it marches on toward the Great White Thrown. 

In most cases military members do obey both God and man and the dissent is built on a series of logical fallacies that ignore the facts and precepts of scripture. 

Up through WW2 the Korean War, I believe warfare was for the most part a clear good vs. evil. The Vietnam War changed all that. From then on, I suspect the incidence of PTSD increased drastically. Soldiers did things that warred against the Spirit within them. 

As we approach the final last days, this blurring of lines will increase substantially, in both the military and the police. If someone is led to join, so be it, but...... there is a great need to understand what may well face them before they are asked to violate their God conscience and  to make their minds up beforehand  to follow God first and foremost. If one struggles with that, it is far better to not put themselves in a position where they cross the now-blurred line. 

blessings, 

Gids

Edited June 22, 2020 by Gideon

[Daniel Marsh]

23 hours ago, Gideon said:

So, one is a child of God in the German army in 1943, assigned to lead Jews into the gas chambers. What do you suggest such a one does? Is God soverign over an evil dictator and murderer? 

leave the back door to the gas chamber open.     Who was in power when Romans 13 was written?

 

 

[Gideon]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You'd be wrong. The wars against Communist expansion are decidedly moral conflicts. The Communists would not have stopped with Viet Nam or Angola or El Salvador had they had unfettered victory. Those of us who survived Communist purges of the religious would be discussing how to be Christians in Communist controlled societies (except we'd have little freedom to discuss any such thing).  That's utterly uninformed and short-sighted. PTSD has a long history that precedes Viet Nam in both frequency of occurrence and severity. We simply didn't have the diagnosis as well defined. Much of what I've posted has come from helping combat veterans heal from trauma (along with others who've experienced non-combat trauma). Gideon, this is so wrong it defies the facts. Pick up a copy of "Trauma and Recovery" by Judith Herman from your local library when they open and read the first two or three chapters. The author summarizes the history of trauma diagnosis from the early days when it was called "hysteria" all the way through "shell shock," and "combat fatigue" right on up to what we know call "post-traumatic stress." Those experiencing combat have always warred against the Spirit within. 

Brother, my point is not about PTSD. If you wantcto make that the focal point, be my guest. However, I have stated my position. Thanks for your responses.

Gids

[Don19]

If you are conscripted, then that's one thing. But if it's your choice, it doesn't seem ideal to me. We're not supposed to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. With being in the military, and even the police, your "brothers-in-arms" are not your brothers in Christ. I think that can even become a problem in some jobs which involve a great deal of commitment or teamwork. Friendship with the world is enmity with God (Jas 4:4). With some roles, you cannot avoid buying into some worldly paradigm rather than minding your own business and doing your own work. The military and police depend on that camaraderie which should be reserved for the brethren.

[Coliseum]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Then let those emotions be patience, kindness, humbleness, respect, deference, trust, forbearance, hope and perseverance with which they run away. 

 

 

The topic of this discussion is the answers to a single question: Should Christians join the police force, Army, Navy, etc.? 

I have answered that question in the affirmative and endeavored to elaborate on how and why that is the case and how and why some of the dissent is either unwarranted or incorrect (scripturally and logically). I've answered and addressed every topical inquiry and comment posted to me. I've done what I'm supposed to do. For doing so the conversation has turned ad hominem. 

Do you think you can return to the topic of this conversation and post accordingly? 

No. Not at this time. Would you rather I create a new subject, or address the real topic beneath this one? People want more than logical words; they are more than the sum of their parts; they want a relationship not only with their Lord and Savior, but with their brothers and sisters in Christ. The heart is deeper than believing every answer must comply with what "I'm supposed to do." God is not interested in our outward compliance, but our heart.  Your interest is in sticking to a topic instead of with a person. Everyone else here desires to learn, but you are not their only teacher. Let your first sentence above apply to you as well. This is all i will say in order that we not go down the "he said, she said" rabbit hole. We do whatever it takes to be exactly like we are. In that sense i respect your individuality, but i am not obligated to imitate it. I plainly admit I have more than I can handle imitating my Savior, and I can certainly say I have a long way to go. I hope one day we develop a rapport instead of checking boxes. God bless.