Jesus was holding the scroll, how can He became the white horse rider of the 1st Seal ?

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

Jesus is not the Rider on the white horse in Rev. 6. This rider goes out to conquer with a bow and has only 1 diadem (crown). No, this is the Antichrist, having a short period of time to conquer the world.

Correction, he has only one stephanos/victor's crown or wreath. Only Christ, the Beast, and Satan wear a diadema/crown of royalty in Revelation. So this is definitely not Christ. It represents the "many" "false christs and false prophets" that will arise at this time. Matt. 24:5, 24

[iamlamad]

On 6/20/2020 at 10:44 PM, R. Hartono said:

Its totally a blunder, many christians claim that the 1st seal of white horse rider is Jesus Christ.

Rev 6:1  I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” ² I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on CONQUEST.

Because Jesus was standing there holding the scroll, how can He then be transformed as the 1st Seal's white horse rider .

As Jesus has nothing more to conquest with His victory over death with His Resurrection, but its the antichrist who will need to conquer the world with fake peace and is followed by the other destructive three horses of peace removal, economic disaster/famine and wars.

What good is that for God to hide it with a Seal if the 1st Seal speaks about Jesus spreading the Gospel to win people ? John has already known this since 30 AD and John would not weep so much if the 1st Seal is about Jesus spreading the Gospel. Its not a secret at all.

And some people keep claiming that the crown is the sign of victory of Christ as they failed to see that the beast of antichrist had ten crowns as written in Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And some other claim that white is the colour of holiness bla bla blah so the white horse of the 1st Seal cant be the antichrist, they failed to see that even the devil pretends to be an angel of light : 2 Cor 11:14 Even Satan can disguise himself to look like an angel of light !

Antichrist will conquer the world with Peace and this is what Paul has written about, people will say "Peace and Safety" :

1 Thes 5:3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

The destruction of that Peace and Safety will be affected by the peace removal by the 2nd seal red horse rider.

Jesus Christ is depicted in Revelation 19 followed by millions of His saints coming to the battle of Armageddon to take over the world from the devil, antichrist and the false prophet, He will establish His millennium government and peace will prevail all over the world. There will not be any peace destruction or famine or wars anymore in His world government.

Perhaps the first question that should be asked is WHEN? WHen did Jesus get the book into His hands and begin to open the seals? The answer is found in chapters 4 & 5 - the CONTEXT of the first seal. 

I agree, anyone that imagines the first seal is Jesus - when it is Jesus opening the seals - is missing something. It is NOT Jesus. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. 

18:  "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

What most do not understand, it would have been illegal for Jesus to send out the church UNTIL He became worthy to open the seals. This book is a LEGAL document made in the throne room of heaven.  Of course from the gospels we know that Jesus did rise from the dead and become worthy to open the seals on this book BEFORE the church was sent out. Many do not understand, it is THIS BOOK that will get Satan cast off his throne at the 7th trumpet. Most people read the seals and then IGNORE the book. The truth is, what is inside the book is more important than the seals sealing the book. 

So BEFORE one reads Rev. 6:1, they MUST read about Jesus GETTING this book and WHEN He got it.

 

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

WHEN DID Jesus become worthy to take this book? 
Note carefully: at the time of this first search John watched, Jesus was NOT WORTHY. 
Then, later, AFTER Jesus had "prevailed," He BECAME worthy. So what did Jesus prevail over that no man before or since has prevailed over? He rose from the dead! He prevailed over DEATH!

WHEN did Jesus prevail over death? Around 32 AD.
What big thing did Jesus do soon after He rose from the dead?  He ascended.

14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

When Jesus met with the disciples, and WANTED them to touch him, proving He ascended as soon as He sent Mary away.  Now read again verse 6 above: John got to see the moment Jesus entered the throne room after sending Mary away.  WHEN? Around 32 AD. 

Now read verse 7 above and ask WHEN? WHEN did Jesus get the book? Again, the answer has to be, around 32 AD.  And WHEN did Jesus send out the church to the nations (seal 1)? Again, around 32 AD.

IN CONTEXT then, the first seal cannot be the Antichrist. 

Jesus has nothing more to conquest   Agreed: but the CHURCH had to overcome every principality and power for every new territory.  So your argument is based on a FALSE PREMISE.

its the antichrist who will need to conquer the world  And he does not even rise to power until chapter 13! You are 2000 years and 7 chapters off. 

followed by the other destructive three horses   Sorry, the second, third and forth rider ride together, leaving the first rider to ride along. They are destructive (war, famine, pestilence) but there is not one word in the description of the white horse and rider that would even hint of anything evil. 

Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation: go and see how John used white in the other 16 uses: NEVER for evil: ALWAYS to represent something good or righteous. You are therefore stating that God would use white 16 times for righteousness and good, and use it once for evil. I don't think so!

What good is that for God to hide it with a Seal if the 1st Seal speaks about Jesus spreading the Gospel to win people ?  The devil became the God of this world way back in Adam's day. Do you think he would not fight for his rights with a LEGAL God? He knew God would act ONLY in a legal means. I am convinced that Satan had something to do with some of the seals sealing the book that would end up destroying His position. It has nothing to do with a hiding: it is what is LEGAL for God. It would have been ILLEGAL for God to just kick Satan off his throne - so he has remained the god of this world since Adam. You can choose to believe it or not, but it would have been ILLEGAL for God to send out the church without first God opening that first seal to make it LEGAL. We can guess, it was the devil's plan that NO ONE EVER would be found worthy to open the seals - so the book could be opened - so the trumpets could sound and get him kicked off his throne. 

John would not weep so much if the 1st Seal is about Jesus spreading the Gospel. Its not a secret at all. The main thrust of chapters 4 & 5 is the BOOK, not the seals sealing the book. It is the BOOK that will end up getting Satan displaces as god of this world.  The seals are only a necessary part of getting that book opened. 

that the beast of antichrist had ten crowns  Sorry, DIFFERENT type of Crowns.  This rider on the white horse has a stephanos crown which was the crown of victory given at games to the ultimate winner. That type of crown would not fit the Antichrist would only appears to win for a season. 

And some other claim that white is the colour of holiness bla bla blah Actually, that other would be the Holy Spirit

Rev. 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 

Rev. 15:6  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Just for the readers, lets see what color GOD chose for the Beast:

 

Rev. 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (other translations have "fiery red.")

I will agree, if the devil was to choose a color for the AC Beast, he would certainly choose white - but we see what color God chose for him. 

 

Antichrist will conquer the world with Peace and this is what Paul has written about, people will say "Peace and Safety" : Sorry, but "peace and Safety" are written in the rapture passage, not in any passage about the Beast.  Your theory is off. 

 

The destruction of that Peace and Safety will be affected by the peace removal by the 2nd seal red horse rider.  This is a theory, it is just a WRONG theory. The timing is Paul's rapture (and the sudden destruction) is at the 6th seal earthquake, LONG before the Antichrist is revealed. 

 

I just wonder why you argue so against the written word of God. Why not just begin to believe it? CHANGE what you believe. 

[iamlamad]

On 8/11/2020 at 11:51 AM, WilliamL said:

Correction, he has only one stephanos/victor's crown or wreath. Only Christ, the Beast, and Satan wear a diadema/crown of royalty in Revelation. So this is definitely not Christ. It represents the "many" "false christs and false prophets" that will arise at this time. Matt. 24:5, 24

Stephanos is the crown of victory given to the winner of the games. It therefore had the idea of ULTIMATE victory. Sorry, it does not fit the Beast or any of his followers; non of which will have complete victory. 

[iamlamad]

On 8/11/2020 at 8:49 AM, RonaldBruno said:

Jesus is not the Rider on the white horse in Rev. 6. This rider goes out to conquer with a bow and has only 1 diadem (crown). No, this is the Antichrist, having a short period of time to conquer the world.

Sorry, wrong for many reasons. TIME being a big reason. You are 2000 years off. 

[RonaldBruno]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, wrong for many reasons. TIME being a big reason. You are 2000 years off. 

Please support your opinion with something more than "time". If you are  a preterist or partial- preterist, don't bother, I've heard the explanation.

[iamlamad]

On 7/29/2020 at 6:19 PM, wingnut- said:

 

I think we may be reading this in very different ways.  If I'm understanding you correctly, you are applying what must take place after these things to something other than the immediate text that follows it.  When I look at chapter 4, and that phrase from the very first verse I apply it to the events described in that body.  I see nothing within that chapter to indicate this is pointing to a future event and could not be a revealing of what took place in heaven prior to His first advent.  Therefore, the first seal would still be a future event from this event, and yet both still be from the past.

I agree: the phrase "After this I looked" is a phrase John used (or a similar one) 6 different times in this book as a transitional phrase showing a change in direction in the vision he was seeing. John being called up is the same 95 AD time he was seeing or hearing about the churches. It is still 95 AD when John was called up to heaven. However, I suspect his vision started before chapter 2! Everything from the point He saw Jesus was in a vision. The open door in heaven was in the vision. 

A vision can be of ANY time, past, present or future; we have to determine the "when" but what John describes. I agree, the first seal was seen in the vision after John was called up, but we must determine the timing of the seal by the text surrounding the seal. In other words, by the context of that first seal. I see a scenario of the past, Jesus not seen, Jesus not found worthy, the Holy Spirit in the throne room, then time passes and Jesus found worthy, then suddenly appearing - a very short version of His time on earth. Then the clincher, the Holy Spirit sent down as Jesus gets the book and begins to open the seals - showing IN CONTEXT the first seal as 32 AD - early church.  So I agree, "still be from the past."

[iamlamad]

Just now, RonaldBruno said:

Please support your opinion with something more than "time". If you are  a preterist or partial- preterist, don't bother, I've heard the explanation.

I will give a short verse, but read my other posts surrounding this one. WE cannot pull this verse out of its early church context. The context is chapters 4 and 5.  I just wrote this to answer another post:

It is still 95 AD when John was called up to heaven. However, I suspect his vision started before chapter 2! Everything from the point He saw Jesus was in a vision. The open door in heaven was in the vision. 

A vision can be of ANY time, past, present or future; we have to determine the "when" but what John describes. I agree, the first seal was seen in the vision after John was called up, but we must determine the timing of the seal by the text surrounding the seal. In other words, by the context of that first seal. I see a scenario of the past, Jesus not seen, Jesus not found worthy, the Holy Spirit in the throne room, then time passes and Jesus found worthy, then suddenly appearing - a very short version of His time on earth. Then the clincher, the Holy Spirit sent down as Jesus gets the book and begins to open the seals - showing IN CONTEXT the first seal as 32 AD - early church.  So I agree, "still be from the past."

 

I am PRETRIB!  But I know the "trib" does not start in Rev. until the 7th seal. The rapture at the 6th seal. Seals 1-5 church age. 

[iamlamad]

On 7/29/2020 at 4:35 PM, Last Daze said:

Hey Wingnut,

The problem I see with that is that the opening of the seals takes place after the letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor. 

• After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”  Revelation 4:1

How could have the gospel gotten to Asia Minor before the new covenant began?  John was told to write three distinct and specific things:

• Therefore write [1] the things which you have seen, and [2] the things which are, and [3] the things which will take place after these things.  Revelation 1:19

Those three things correspond to:

• [1] - the vision of Jesus
• [2] - the seven letters to the seven churches
• [3] - the seven seals

Numbers 2 & 3 correspond to the chronology Jesus gave us in Matthew 24; the gospel will be preached to all nations and then the end will come.  The opening of the first seal follows the preaching of the gospel to all the nations.

The answer is simple: in a vision, "TIME" can be of the past, present or future or even a mix. We determine the time by the context. 

[iamlamad]

On 7/29/2020 at 2:42 PM, wingnut- said:

 

 Hey brother, good to talk with you as always.

I understand what you are saying, but when we take scripture as a whole there is not one single instance where the color white is used to depict or symbolize anything other than holiness.   Then there is the issue of the white rider appearing in two places of the same book and not being consistent with the identity.  As well as victory and the victor's crown would fit more with Jesus than the enemy wouldn't you say?

...

I understand, and I am not posting with the intent of convincing anyone of anything, that's God's job if there is an error that needs correcting.  The main reason I decided to post in the first place is because the OP and some who responded, have decided that mockery by method of ignoring God's attributes and even worse, recognizing those attributes as something the enemy possesses, were somehow a solid foundation for their belief.

What I have offered is in my opinion a much more sound and harmonious application of scripture as a whole, and certainly worth considering for anyone that is interested in knowing for certain that what they believe to be true, is actually true.  I know you are a reasonable man, and will consider what a brother offers and decide based on the evidence and personal conviction, others are convinced they know everything and will not give it due consideration.  All I am saying, is that despite the position being called a blunder (not by you), there is merit to it, and I believe more merit than what has been presented to the contrary.

when we take scripture as a whole there is not one single instance where the color white is used to depict or symbolize anything other than holiness.   WOW! Good job! I agree. 

the victor's crown would fit more with Jesus than the enemy  It is really a crown of ultimate victory, given to the winner in the games. When he gets the crown, he is finished with the game. He won. End of story. It is Jesus that gets the ultimate victory. The beast may SEEM to have victory, but it is only for a season. 

What I see taking place when the first seal is opened is the genesis of the New Covenant, which is laid out in its entirety within Revelation, and that began with His first advent.   Very Good! I agree. Chapters 4 & 5 show Jesus on earth, then Jesus prevailing over death, becoming worthy to take the book, ascending into heaven, then GETTING the book, then opening the first few seals. 

Good post! 

[iamlamad]

On 7/29/2020 at 8:49 AM, Last Daze said:

It may not be a matter of good vs. evil.  From what I've read, a white horse symbolized victory.  The horse rider is also given a victor's crown so that fits.

As was pointed out earlier, Jeremiah 9:3 states:

• They bend their tongue like their bow; lies and not truth prevail in the land.

That is what I see taking place when the first seal is opened.  The chronology of the last days in summary is stated by Jesus in Matthew 24:14:

• This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The end is brought to pass through the opening of the seven seals.  When the first seal is opened, the rider is allowed to be victorious in his spreading of lies, the arrows of the enemy according to Ephesians 6:16.  Allowing this rider to spread lies after the preaching of the gospel serves the purpose of revealing everyone's faith.  It will challenge and strengthen the faith of those who believe in God, and it will further delude those who have preferred the pleasures of sin and rejected the gospel.  It begins the segregation process.

Except, this is taking the first seals out of their 1st century context.