Mirror, mirror on the wall.....

[Gideon]

30 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Thanks, that has answered my questions, in a roundabout way.

In general, I agree with what you've posted, not only doctrinally but also in experience.

I'm unsure why you earlier quibbled with trusting in the Lord, which is what all those who walk in faith and fellowship with the Lord do.  We not only believe in who we are, as new creations, but, and much more importantly, we look to him at all times, for all that we need, and not to ourselves, for, without him, we can do nothing.

The only reason I questioned 'trusting in the Lord' is that some people assume this means  that when God is ready to make me free indeed, He will. Our heart desire has much to do with what we receive from the Lord. Hungering and thirsting is a huge part of receiving. I am greatly blessed that we walk in much agreement. Be greatly blessed, David

Gids

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, Gideon said:

The only reason I questioned 'trusting in the Lord' is that some people assume this means  that when God is ready to make me free indeed, He will. Our heart desire has much to do with what we receive from the Lord. Hungering and thirsting is a huge part of receiving. I am greatly blessed that we walk in much agreement. Be greatly blessed, David

Gids

I may get back to this tomorrow. For now, I will interject Grace and the finished work of Christ into this thought.

We have already received everything the Lord had for us In Christ. This is a distinction with a difference.

[Gideon]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

I may get back to this tomorrow. For now, I will interject Grace and the finished work of Christ into this thought.

We have already received everything the Lord had for us In Christ. This is a distinction with a difference.

We may want to remember the scripture that says "but it did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

We are all new creatures. But there is still a need to reckoning it so in or lives, for this is God's will that we exercise our faith and believe  to "activate" his amazing truth so hat we  can be partakers of its blessing.

thanks for your additions to this post, Alive.  i appreciate them. 

Gids 

[Guy Nadeau]

1 hour ago, Gideon said:

We may want to remember the scripture that says "but it did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

We are all new creatures. But there is still a need to reckoning it so in or lives, for this is God's will that we exercise our faith and believe  to "activate" his amazing truth so hat we  can be partakers of its blessing.

thanks for your additions to this post, Alive.  i appreciate them. 

Gids 

God's grace sure is not a license to continue in sin, We are the slaves of the one we are obeying that's for sure. I know for a fact that, the more willing we become to follow God's lead as we think He is leading us, the more free in deed we are.

[Heybro]

11 hours ago, Gideon said:

Changes are coning to the body of Christ. Huge changes. Everything that is not Jesus will be shaken away, thank God. What He has for us will blow our minds, as we begin to walk in victory, from the least to the greatest.... and in that order. ?

blessings, 

Gideon

My oh my, what a day of rejoicing that will be, when we all see Jesus, we'll sing and shout the Victory. blessings brother let's all proclaim it.

[Gideon]

37 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I'm gonna keep this brief because I don't want to sidetrack the discussion further and I've said some of this already. 

First, none of us have much time because our lives are like grass in the scorching heat of the sun, a mere breath. Conflating our mortality with eschatology is, again, misguided. Furthermore, fear isn't the best motivator, especially not from one believer to another believer! If this op were posted in one of the secular boards I might be supportive of "Sinner's in the Hands of an Angry God" kind of warning but we're all Christians and there is nothing we need fear, dread, or worry about in Christ's coming. You or I could die tomorrow (long before Jesus returns ). So the eschatology is unnecessary.

Then there's the problem I have already addressed: we're not running out of time! This is important because if Jesus doesn't come back tomorrow, or next week, next month, next year, or next decade you and I and every single Christian here is supposed to be doing God's work....... not dreading a return that might not happen. I'm not going to track down the op and link you to it but in a recent op on the supposedly near-occurring tribulation I asked the posters what they would do, what they would say, and how they would change if it doesn't happen when the op says it's gonna happen and not a single one of those posters had an answer! Instead.... you won't find this surprising... I was personally attacked. We're not running out of time- the redeemed and regenerate never run out of time! We will be raised incorruptible and immortal! We'll all enter the grave with unresolved sin on our ledger but we will also all be forgiven because Christs sacrifice at Calvary covers the unknown sin. So eschatology is unnecessary. 

It's a bad motivator. It's not really relevant to Christians. It belongs in another board. It's unnecessary to a conversation about what is otherwise a universal condition. 

We are moved by the love of God, not dread of the future. 

I for one would not change much if I knew I were going to die tomorrow, or next week, or next month.... etc., because I am already engaged in doing what I am supposed to be doing in and for the kingdom every day. 

 

I'll leave you with the last word on this matter (at least in this op) because I feel no need to belabor the matter further. The op has a lot of good content but on this one point I think the op misguided; not necessarily wrong, just misguided into unnecessary and scripturally problematic content. I'll address the non-eschatological content in a separate post. 

Do you remember a few posts back I asked that we stick to the actual subject of the OP? Could we try that? 

blessings, 

Gids

[Gideon]

52 minutes ago, Josheb said:

So I again am somewhat resistant because of the topic of the op and a perceived internal conflict with the subsequent posts supporting it. I'm gonna try to put this a least provocatively as I can but I am a blunt sort of guy and endeavor to speak plainly: It's not your job to compel anyone in the body! The op is about our looking in the mirror and the need to walk in Christ. Or, as I've alluded to, perhaps unnoticed since I didn't specify the text, the goals stated in Ephesians 4 = unity, maturity, and Christ-likeness. This is why I asked earlier if you're in a position of leadership. 

Ephesians 4 tells us Christ gave his body apostles, evangelists, prophets, pastors, and teachers. I don't think that list is exhaustive but that tangential. In my job I'm often the pastor of pastors. A leader over leaders. I'm about your age and in my nearly 40 years as a Christian I have mentored many men and couples in a lay capacity. There the recognition of my role is less formal, though no less recognized by those in leadership over me. The task set before a pastor, preacher, teacher, etc. is, as I have already stated, is the equipping of the saints for service, the building up of the body of Christ, the attainment of unity in the faith, the knowledge of Christ, maturity therein, and the fitting of the body's members together. 

That's my job. 

That's my job when I am at work, or serving in a specific capacity as lay mentor. 

Nearly every congregation in which I have been a member has asked me to serve as an elder. I decline because I have learned people treat counselors weirdly when they find out your a deacon/elder/pastor and a counselor. I let the pastors and elders of the congregations to which I commit that my counseling services are free on a short-term basis to fellow congregants. I do not want to be perceived as in a role of leadership in the congregations where I worship. I lead nearly everywhere I go but when I go to church on Sunday (or Wednesday not, or home group, or... etc.) I want to be known as just another believer in the body of Christ. Too many leaders don't know normal. Too many ordinary Christians think they are Jesus and they can act like Jesus chasing out the money changers. Or they wrongly imagine themselves justified to be harsh because Paul was tough on Corinth when the truth is they are not apostles and do not have the authority God bestowed upon Paul (or James, Peter, etc.). The Bible has a much different set of standards for peer-relationships.

At work I'm a shepherd. 

At church I'm a sheep. 

At work I'm a "head" or a "brain" or a "hand" (work) but on Sunday I'm a toe, or a butt cheek, or a shoulder. 

When I enter Worthy I'm a sheep. 

What I'm trying to get at here is this: unless you are in a formal position of leadership recognized by the forum you're a sheep when you enter Worthy! 

The same applies to every single one of us! That's why it's so astonishing when you pinheads think I'm acting arrogant, condescending, aggressive, hateful, clinically non-empathetic. You're talking to a sheep, a lowly sheep, not one who thinks he can stand on two legs above all the other sheep and herd them around any way he likes. I encourage you to take a similar approach: be cautious about telling other posters they don't know what's what and need to get their act together because Jesus is coming real soon so be afraid. 

 

The op asks an excellent question but it does so openly implying its already-regenerate Christian readers are not there. The op asserts scripture well (except for that part about the last days ) but it does so in a manner reporting the readers don't just not-know it but are not obedient to it. 

I did ask about this. 

I did not assume it before judging; I asked. 

I was told others are lacking. 

I say this because this is what you should be seeing in the mirror. Covered in the blood of Christ. So when you post this op again in different wording (because we both know you will) consider doing so edifying the readers by assuming they do know this and they are doing this and they will benefit from the encouragement of the edifying op. 

Philippians 2:3-7  
"Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;  do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.  Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,  who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,  but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant..."

 

I approached the op with this in mind. I was astonished to read other believers being marginalized. So I asked and the matter was confirmed.  I believe that was done unwittingly. If God did give you something to say to others then do so scripturally. The message and the method must have integrity with each other if the weak, immature, and disobedient are to receive it. We who are strong (and I use the term loosely and humbly) ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not please ourselves and without passing judgment but looking to their needs and interests. Encourage the faint-hearted, help the weak, and be patient with all. 

So watch what happens, Gideon, because there are a few who will react adversarial to this very post, arguing it is self-contradictory. Haters are gonna hate.  They can't not do so. They see something else in the mirror besides a sheep. Still covered with the Lamb's blood, but not a sheep. 

 

 

(my apologies for the length)

Wow. Quite a history. I could respond, but I suspect I could never measure up to your resume. 

One comment. It is concerning the word "compel". It reminds me of a true story I once read about. A man condemned to death was being led to the gallows in England early in the morning at sunrise. In back of him, a sleepy unenthusiastic minister did his duty, praying, most likely thst he could go back to bed. 

Suddenly the condemned man turned round and asked the man of God if he believed in hell as the Bible described it. The startled minister nodded that he did. Then the man, soon to face the noose and the eternity that followed,  said this:

"If I believed as you say you believe, though all of England was strewn with shards of broken glass, I would crawl across it on my knees, if needs be, to save just one man from such a fate."

Brother, what that man was describing is simply one compelled to move on the behalf of another for their good, even if at times, the hearer do not see it nor yet  value it, and yes, even if there is a cost associated with following through in obeying the Spirit that is doing the compelling. 

No, you are absolutely correct.  It is not my job to compel others to walk in the fullness of their new nature that Jesus died to give them. It is my privilege, and one that I in no ways deserve. But I thank God for the love  that  He has placed in me urging me to share with others.

And  yes, this even includes other brothers and sisters in Christ, who far too often have been taught by their appointed official religious shepherds  that the best God can do is forgive sins but it will take physical death to accomplish what Christ's death could not as to walking in victory over the sins they cannot defeat. I pray that the love and the urging of the Spirit of God He has granted me never goes out. 

blessings, 

Gids

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Gideon

[Sower]

8 hours ago, Gideon said:

 If we knew we would die a week from today.... guaranteed..... would we go on with our lives  as currently lived? I sincerely doubt so.

The hour is late, even though you do not agree. The need is great. The church as a whole is languishing, and displaying little of Jesus to a lost and soon-to-be-judged world. That should bother us to our core.  Tha fact that it does not speaks volumes as to our overall condition. 

 You say; If we knew we would die a week from today.... guaranteed..... would we go on with our lives  as currently lived?   I sincerely doubt so.

I find it amazing as always Gideon that you know so much about so many as to everybody's spiritual condition.
You have a burden, and you preach it to those who have an ear.  That's great.
But I've heard it before, many many times over the years.
I'm not a babe, nor my wife and family. Nor my old friends and church members.
You say the hour is late. What time is it? Why haven't you had this urgency as soon as you were saved?
If you have been saved, you have an idea of what you have been saved from. Right?
Because I do not know you, I have to assume you had an urgency to tell any/every body the good news since the start of yours. Right?
The hour has always been late, the need has always been great, and not just since you had your revelation;

“The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few"

There are so many around the world who have listened to the call to sow seeds of light into the darkness.
Not waiting, but remembering they once walked in darkness, and now an inner urgency to tell whosoever will.

I went on  my first 'official' church visitation maybe 35+ yrs ago with my pastor to a church visitor at her home.
In a matter of a few hours, while I kept the kids quiet and TV on low, I witnessed my pastor share
the gospel to a young mom, and I witnessed my first in person birth of a child of God.
My role was tiny, but I was so excited to have participated, and be a part.
That desire has never left me. And so many other average believers I know. What greater gift than to help/lead someone hear the good news.
"Those who go out weeping, carrying seed to sow, will return with songs of joy, carrying sheaves with them"
I am not an evangelist, nor do I study scripture intensely to the extent most here do. I seek that which I can use in my walk.
Proverbs!  Everyday life living, how to, who to. A lot about allowing God control. (abiding)
I do not know enough to have a part in an good intellectual debate, but I do know, whereas once I was lost, and now I'm saved.
I an not sinless, but I continue/strive to sin less. I learned how to grab those thoughts, and give them to God. His/our problem.
Unlike your testimony, this has taken place in me over about four decades. I haven't arrived. More lessons, God's timing.
But not having arrived does not stop me from growing, abiding, or sharing the good news. I was born a child. I grew into a man.
No mountain top revelations to sing and shout. But the valley journeys, where I have grown, through daily struggles of life.
And most of my learning came from my church, my pastor, men's bible study, and fellowship. Yes, through the Holy Spirit.
Most on this forum admittedly do not assemble together at a church. For various reasons, right or wrong.
The church isn't up to a their standard so why go. And that is a shame to loose out what God has appointed for His flock.
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
but exhorting one another: and so much the more,
as ye see the day approaching.

You said;  "The church as a whole is languishing, and displaying little of Jesus to a lost and soon-to-be-judged world"

I am responsible for my testimony. As the new head of my household, am responsible for my family. So we joined a church. They're everywhere.
People today do not accept the current church. It holds members accountable. The real ones, that is, not what you see on TV.
Most do not believe in submitting to the authority of the shepherd, (not for today) so they leave, and get together for a while with a few 'like minded' friends.
I know some who would leave their church for any excuse, and would flit from church to church, looking for another excuse.
Perhaps it's not always the church that's the problem, but maybe the ignorant wandering sheep. And the devils give a high five.

"Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors"

This above is from Proverbs 8, 34, a few thousands of years ago.
And it was also urgent back then, Gideon.
Preach it, brother. I'm no preacher. But I enjoy listening to them all most of the time.
A preacher might come up and say to a young believer; 
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man"
How is that believer going to learn anything listening to hell fire meat. He needs the milk.

A suggestion would be to try a little more encouragement.
Tell us how you implemented what you preach into your daily walk. (really )
The church, God's body,  has been around a long time. I believe God can handle it, till He decides it's time.
God is light, and He is still on the throne...

 

 

 

[Gideon]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

 

In the anecdote it is the condemned man who is compelled by his own conviction, not another's. You stated you wish to force or pressure others, not be compelled by your own convictions. In the anecdote the condemned man is not a believer. The readers here are. In the gospel (Luke 14) it is the slaves of the Master compelling outsiders (the poor, crippled, blind, and lame) to come in. No regenerate believer is an outsider. You say it is your privilege to do that which scripture prohibits you from doing and this is done with the request to look in the mirror. You do understand when we look in the mirror we don't see you? 

I shall not ask about the privilege to ignore the scriptures I exegeted at the beginning of the discussion. I will not ask about the privilege of ignoring valid inquiries and affirmation of the op. Nor shall I ask if it was your privilege to insinuate lukewarmness, impurity, apathy, or a lack of brokenness on other believers. I will not ask about the privilege of implying you have greater understanding than the readers and "denominations full of brilliant educated men." I will not ask about insinuating the believers here do not mix truth with faith, do not eat from the tree  of life, and do not see or hear rightly. I will not ask about the contradiction of saying these things while also (correctly) reporting "every single sheep will walk as overcomers." I will not ask about the privilege of claiming satan has corrupted the body of Christ!?!? I will not ask about these statements because I read where it was stated the op could have been delivered better. 

I will, however, ask you to give some prayerful thought to the delivery of future exhortation to fellow believers when posting on being doers of the Word in subsequent ops. Remember you are writing to royal priests chosen by God Himself, not atheists. You are writing to the adopted sons and daughters of the Most High God, most of whom have enough courage and fortitude to participate in an internet discussion board  (most of it through Christ, and not the flesh ).

I also think a little reading about John Darby and just how much he denied centuries of long-standing well-established Church doctrine and replaced them with views never previously held would also be beneficial. 

I think we have thoroughly beaten this horse to death.  We obviously believe differently. Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts and concerns. 

blessings,

 Gideon

[Alive]

5 hours ago, Sower said:

 You say; If we knew we would die a week from today.... guaranteed..... would we go on with our lives  as currently lived?   I sincerely doubt so.

I find it amazing as always Gideon that you know so much about so many as to everybody's spiritual condition.
You have a burden, and you preach it to those who have an ear.  That's great.
But I've heard it before, many many times over the years.
I'm not a babe, nor my wife and family. Nor my old friends and church members.
You say the hour is late. What time is it? Why haven't you had this urgency as soon as you were saved?
If you have been saved, you have an idea of what you have been saved from. Right?
Because I do not know you, I have to assume you had an urgency to tell any/every body the good news since the start of yours. Right?
The hour has always been late, the need has always been great, and not just since you had your revelation;

“The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few"

There are so many around the world who have listened to the call to sow seeds of light into the darkness.
Not waiting, but remembering they once walked in darkness, and now an inner urgency to tell whosoever will.

I went on  my first 'official' church visitation maybe 35+ yrs ago with my pastor to a church visitor at her home.
In a matter of a few hours, while I kept the kids quiet and TV on low, I witnessed my pastor share
the gospel to a young mom, and I witnessed my first in person birth of a child of God.
My role was tiny, but I was so excited to have participated, and be a part.
That desire has never left me. And so many other average believers I know. What greater gift than to help/lead someone hear the good news.
"Those who go out weeping, carrying seed to sow, will return with songs of joy, carrying sheaves with them"
I am not an evangelist, nor do I study scripture intensely to the extent most here do. I seek that which I can use in my walk.
Proverbs!  Everyday life living, how to, who to. A lot about allowing God control. (abiding)
I do not know enough to have a part in an good intellectual debate, but I do know, whereas once I was lost, and now I'm saved.
I an not sinless, but I continue/strive to sin less. I learned how to grab those thoughts, and give them to God. His/our problem.
Unlike your testimony, this has taken place in me over about four decades. I haven't arrived. More lessons, God's timing.
But not having arrived does not stop me from growing, abiding, or sharing the good news. I was born a child. I grew into a man.
No mountain top revelations to sing and shout. But the valley journeys, where I have grown, through daily struggles of life.
And most of my learning came from my church, my pastor, men's bible study, and fellowship. Yes, through the Holy Spirit.
Most on this forum admittedly do not assemble together at a church. For various reasons, right or wrong.
The church isn't up to a their standard so why go. And that is a shame to loose out what God has appointed for His flock.
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
but exhorting one another: and so much the more,
as ye see the day approaching.

You said;  "The church as a whole is languishing, and displaying little of Jesus to a lost and soon-to-be-judged world"

I am responsible for my testimony. As the new head of my household, am responsible for my family. So we joined a church. They're everywhere.
People today do not accept the current church. It holds members accountable. The real ones, that is, not what you see on TV.
Most do not believe in submitting to the authority of the shepherd, (not for today) so they leave, and get together for a while with a few 'like minded' friends.
I know some who would leave their church for any excuse, and would flit from church to church, looking for another excuse.
Perhaps it's not always the church that's the problem, but maybe the ignorant wandering sheep. And the devils give a high five.

"Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors"

This above is from Proverbs 8, 34, a few thousands of years ago.
And it was also urgent back then, Gideon.
Preach it, brother. I'm no preacher. But I enjoy listening to them all most of the time.
A preacher might come up and say to a young believer; 
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man"
How is that believer going to learn anything listening to hell fire meat. He needs the milk.

A suggestion would be to try a little more encouragement.
Tell us how you implemented what you preach into your daily walk. (really )
The church, God's body,  has been around a long time. I believe God can handle it, till He decides it's time.
God is light, and He is still on the throne...

 

 

 

Thank you, brother and praise the Lord.

I hear you.