"Not one stone will be left on top of another"

[BibleReader]

55 minutes ago, Episcopius said:

Research "Titus' soldiers set fire to Temple"

His soldiers, not Jews, set it on fire.

Josephus was an eyewitness.

Yes, soldiers pryed stones apart to get at melted gold.

The wailing wall is not part of the Temple.

 

Thanks for your input.  Regarding the Western Wall, Encyclopedia Britannica says:  "It is the only remains of the Second Temple of Jerusalem, held to be uniquely holy by the ancient Jews and destroyed by the Romans in 70 ce."  

[Justin Adams]

6 hours ago, Episcopius said:

Research "Titus' soldiers set fire to Temple"

His soldiers, not Jews, set it on fire.

Josephus was an eyewitness.

Yes, soldiers pryed stones apart to get at melted gold.

The wailing wall is not part of the Temple.

 

When I read Josephus, I am sure that in the ensuing melee the rioting Jews were fighting each other and throwing temple stuff on the fire.

I would be interested if you could quote some historically verified documents. This is because detractors of our faith love to throw around innuendos about the veracity of Yeshua's Words. 

[BibleReader]

7 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

When I read Josephus, I am sure that in the ensuing melee the rioting Jews were fighting each other and throwing temple stuff on the fire.

I would be interested if you could quote some historically verified documents. This is because detractors of our faith love to throw around innuendos about the veracity of Yeshua's Words. 

What I'm trying to understand is how to harmonize the testimony of different writers and have an idea of what really happened.  It's important to me because it would help me to decipher if Jesus words were fulfilled already or if there will be a future fulfillment or if there is dual fulfillment possibly.

Sincerely, I'm not able to find all the references yet, but if someone else can help out that would be great.  Here's what I have so far:  

• Josephus (75 C.E.) :  "Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and the temple... the wall was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundations, that there was left nothing to make those that came there believe it had ever been inhabited." (Wars of the Jews 7:1:1).
•  Pilgrim of Bordeaux (Records travels made in 333 C.E. but I'm not sure if the copies of these writings were found in later centuries, still researching):  “Here is also the corner of an exceeding high tower , where our Lord ascended and the tempter said to Him, 'If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence.' (Matt 4:7). And the Lord answered, 'Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, but him only shalt thou serve.' (Matt 4:10). There is a great corner – stone, of which it was said, 'The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner.' (Matt 21:42; Ps 118:22). Under the pinnacle (pinna) of the tower are many rooms, and here was Solomon's palace. There also is the chamber in which he sate and wrote the (Book of) Wisdom; this chamber is covered with a single stone. There are also large subterranean reservoirs for water and pools constructed with great labour. And in the building (in aede) itself, where stood the temple which Solomon built, they say that the blood of Zacharias (Matt 23:35; Luke 11:51) which was shed upon the stone pavement before the altar remains to this day. There are also to be seen the marks of the nails in the shoes of the soldiers who slew him, throughout the whole enclosure, so plain that you would think they were impressed upon wax. There are two statues of Hadrian, and not far from the statues there is a perforated stone , to which the Jews come every year and anoint it, bewail themselves with groans, rend their garments, and so depart. There also is the house of Hezekiah King of Judah.” 
• The Book “Eusebius of Caesarea Against Paganism” says:  "Jesus prophesied: "There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down" (Matt. 24:2). The fulfillment of that prophecy continued to the time of Eusebius, who attested that one could still see ruins of the marvelous decorations of the Temple. The ruins were preserved as fragments and not as parts of a building. The power of the prophecy continued throughout the course of history, since the ruins of buildings survived as evidence of the destruction on the Temple Mount until Eusebius' time...In many places on the Temple Mount, there were no longer ruins even of the buildings' foundations,“Eusebius, who attested that one could still see ruins of the marvelous decorations of the Temple.” 
• The book "Liturgy and Architecture From the Early Church to the Middle Ages" says:  "In the fourth century two pinnacles of the Temple appear still to have been in existence, but in surviving copies of Egeria’s own text, at any rate, there is no mention of services or prayers of any kind being offered there by the Christian community."  (Reference List 46:  See especially ibid., p. 88 where the twelfth-century text of Peter the Deacon, based heavily on Egeria, is translated)

If anyone has direct quotes from the earliest writers on the subject, I would greatly appreciate it.  Thanks in advance.  

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by BibleReader

[missmuffet]

23 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Matthew 24:2: "...Do you see all these buildings? I tell you the truth, they will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!”  

Would this have to be fulfilled in the generation of the first century?  Matthew 24:34:  "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place." 

However, there is a problem.  Eusebius, "bishop of Caesarea" said that he could still see the remains of the sanctuary.  A traveler of Bordeaux gave the following testimony in A.D. 333: "At the side of the Sanctuary, there is a pierced stone. Jews visit there once a year, pour oil over it, lament and weep over it, and tear their garments in token of mourning. Then they return home."  Furthermore, the western wall is still visited today.  

Moreover, Irenaeus defended Christianity and went to great lengths to prove its veracity.  Nevertheless, if I understand correctly, when he referred to Matthew 24:15, he made a future application of the prophecy, not past (c. 130 – c. 202 AD).  

Since every stone of the temple apparently was not thrown down in the first century and early christian writers do not speak of the sign of the conclusion of the system of things as having taken place already, does this mean that everything Jesus said in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is referring to the future? 

 

 

Our world will be destroyed. But those who are born again will endure to the last. 

Matthew 24:13

 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

[BibleReader]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Scripture first rendering scripture.

 

I totally agree with this statement.  Nevertheless, not all of the results are in scripture.  For example, here's the bottom line:  Did the generation of Jesus day see the fulfillment of Matthew 24:1,2 that a stone would not be left upon another of the temple or would it be a future generation that would see all of that?  The scriptures obviously don't make historical mention of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.  Therefore, I'm trying to research the history of the temple mount so that I can come to my own conclusions.  (At Matthew 16:20 Jesus firmly told his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ--I guess he wanted each one to reach his own conclusion based on the evidence?).  

For this reason, if anyone has pertinent references on the subject, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.  

[Buddy D. Mouse]

"The Canon of scripture was closed by the time Jerusalem was destroyed"

Interesting claim - I am inclined to agree with it - but it is no doubt a minority view.

 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

It is very possible that the originals of all the NT books were penned before Jerusalem fell.

Whether that constitutes a "closing of the canon" is debatable.

[BeyondET]

On 6/30/2020 at 2:31 PM, BibleReader said:

Matthew 24:2: "...Do you see all these buildings? I tell you the truth, they will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!”  

Would this have to be fulfilled in the generation of the first century?  Matthew 24:34:  "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place." 

However, there is a problem.  Eusebius, "bishop of Caesarea" said that he could still see the remains of the sanctuary.  A traveler of Bordeaux gave the following testimony in A.D. 333: "At the side of the Sanctuary, there is a pierced stone. Jews visit there once a year, pour oil over it, lament and weep over it, and tear their garments in token of mourning. Then they return home."  Furthermore, the western wall is still visited today.  

Moreover, Irenaeus defended Christianity and went to great lengths to prove its veracity.  Nevertheless, if I understand correctly, when he referred to Matthew 24:15, he made a future application of the prophecy, not past (c. 130 – c. 202 AD).  

Since every stone of the temple apparently was not thrown down in the first century and early christian writers do not speak of the sign of the conclusion of the system of things as having taken place already, does this mean that everything Jesus said in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is referring to the future? 

 

 

I’ve read the wall was originally erected as part of the expansion of the second Jewish temple begun by Herod the great. A wall is a structure but not a building. All the buildings was destroyed within the walls of the temple.

 

 

[BibleReader]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

Much of our rendering will be speculative because the canon of scripture was closed by the time Jerusalem was destroyed. 

 

I appreciate your perspective, but I can't say I agree.  Jesus said:  "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." (Matthew 24:21).  After 70 AD, the world has apparently seen greater tribulations.  What's your viewpoint on this?  

[Justin Adams]

8 minutes ago, BibleReader said:

What's your viewpoint on this?  

Read the entirety of Josephus' writings on the subject. It was awful and so devastating for Israelis. It was a time of great sorrow, but all the 'theology' experts of the time and later kinda said, 'they had it coming'. A bit like the British newscaster after 9/11.

Or have we all forgotten?