Postmillennialism: Christendom's Bright Cheerful View Of The Future Of The Human Race.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Postmillennialism.

The claim that the entire world will eventually be Christianised presents as idealistic concept that conflicts with both Scriptural predictions and economic practicalities. This is clearly confirmed by the explicit admonitions of Jesus Himself quite emphatically that widespread conflict, apostasy and deception would be the prevailing scenario in the last days. (eg, Matt. 24: 4 - 30.  Mark 13: 5 - 26.  Luke 21: 10 - 28)  

 

Contemporary world conditions confirm this prediction, as current conversions to Christianity throughout the countries are not even maintaining parity with the population explosion. Statistics on comparative religions further emphasis this decline. Islam alone is gaining converts over Christianity, even in traditional Christian countries.

 

This propensity to spiritualise Scripture is further demonstrated by their exegesis of the great conflicts predicted by the Apostle John in his recorded revelation of the end-time. They say the final `war` has nothing to do with military manoeuvres or military weapons or even with geographical locations. They say it is a spiritual battle that has been going on throughout the ages.

 

It is thus evident that from Postmillennial presentations that, to substantiate their particular doctrine, they have been somewhat selective in both scripture and macro-economics. In addition they obviously do not regard literal adherence to the Word of God as essential, but preferably major on figurative interpretation and symbolic language.

Shalom, Marilyn.

YES! And, Yeshua` Himself said,

Luke 18:1-8 (KJV)

1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: 

“There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man.  3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’  4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man,  5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’”

6 Then the Lord said, 

“Hear what the unjust judge said.  7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?  8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

In Greek, this last sentence is worded in such a way as to expect a NEGATIVE response! "No, of course He won't!"

I should add that Postmillennialism died off once because of the World Wars I & II. Perhaps it should never have been brought back!

Edited July 8, 2020 by Retrobyter
to add Postmillennium's history

[JAG**]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

You're still not dealing with the fact there are figurative uses of "thousand" throughout the Bible. And, yes, you are making exegetical errors by over-mining the Hebrew. 

Fail. 

The original point was in reference to Revelation 20, not Psalm 50. You've missed the forest for the trees. In stating "Of course the number is used figuratively..." you have conceded the original point. Thanks for agreeing with me. Next time try not wasting so much time, effort, and cyberspace doing so. The word "thousand" has figurative precedent in scripture. Whether not that point is proven via Ps. 50 or some other text the original point remains true. 

 

• Revelation 20 is the only place a thousand-year reign is mentioned.
• The word "thousand" occurs in a chapter rife with figurative language.
• There is a precedent of figurative use of the word "thousand" throughout the Bible. 
• There is no mention the thousand-year reign being on earth; the only thrones mentioned are in heaven. 
• Christ will not stop being Lord when a thousand years expire.

 

The "thousand" in Rev. 20 is figurative. 

 

After days of dissent and several posts not a single point has been refuted. You have a difference of opinion, not a refutation. 

Josheb,

Miscellaneous Points:

* I just came across a lengthy list of Christian Churches that

have pastors that are Postmillennialists.  There are a lot of them.

Dr. Kenneth Gentry has complied the list and this is a strong

indication that Postmillennialism is growing and expanding 

in  America. Here is the link:

https://postmillennialworldview.com/postmill-churches/

You will be impressed with this list.

____________

* I am reading along in the thread.

* You are making some very helpful points.

* I am learning from reading your posts.

* You are not wasting your time.

* As long as any of us can make at least some measurable contribution

to the life of another human being, then we are using our time wisely.

____________

* We have to be satisfied with making small contributions, even this

much 0.1 is enough to make our efforts worth while. Or even this 0.01

___________

* Postmillennialism is gradually gaining   ground and making converts in

America and in some other parts of the world.

Australia, Brazil, Canada, Ireland,  Philippines and  South Africa

as well as some 36 states in America. I counted 36 at this link:

https://postmillennialworldview.com/postmill-churches/

____________

* Christian Eschatology is a subject highly charged with emotion and

so resistance is natural and to be expected. This is true for all

Eschatological debates between any of the adherents of these 4 schools

of Christian Eschatology:

 Postmillennialism
 Amillennialism
 Premillennialism

 Dispensationalism

______________

 

* When any debate opponents play the G-Card  and the B-Card, the debate is

pretty much over. The G-Card is "So then you don't believe God" or "So then

you are arguing against God." The B-Card is "So then you don't believe the Bible"

or "So then you are arguing against the Bible" Of course, nobody can argue against

God or against the Bible.  Both the G-Card and the B-Card are logical fallacies 

that are ad hominem attacks on the Christian character of our debate opponents. 

How so? Because its a serious  SIN not to agree with both God and the Bible on

all things. Nobody here at Worthy plays the G-Card or the B-Card so the debate

is conducted in Christian love at all times.

 

________________

 

Postmillennialism  has a strong presence on You Tube and a very strong presence in the world

of Christian Eschatological literature and it is growing steadily in influence thanks to the

Internet and to the fact that people in most parts of the world have devices that give them 

access to the Internet.

This list of  distinguished Postmillennialists is worth a second look:
Origen
Eusebius
Athanasius
Augustine
Daniel Whitby
Isaac Watts
The Wesley Brothers
Jonathan Edwards
William Carey
Robert Haldane
Archibald Alexander
A.A. Hodge
Charles Hodge
Albert Barnes
David Brown
Patrick Fairbairn
Richard C. Trench
J.A. Alexander
J.H. Thornwell
Robert L. Dabney
William G.T. Shedd
Augustus H. Strong
H.C.G. Moule
B.B. Warfield
O.T. Allis
J. Gresham Machen
John Murray
Loraine Boettner
J. Marcellus Kik
Greg L. Bahnsen
David Chilton
Rousas J. Rushdoony
_____________

Contemporary Postmillennialist Writers:
Reuben Alvarado
Curtis Crenshaw
John Jefferson Davis
Gary DeMar
J. Ligon Duncan lll
John R. deWitt
Kenneth L. Gentry Jr.
George Grant
Grover E. Gunn
Stephen J. Hayhow
Erroll Hulse
Douglas Kelly
Francis Nigel Lee
Peter J. Leithart
Donald Macleod
Keith A. Mathison
Iain Murray
Gary North
Stephen C. Perks
Willard Ramsey
Andrew Sandlin
Steve Schlissel
Norman Shepherd
R.C. Sproul
Ray R. Sutton
Kenneth G. Talbot
Jack Van Deventer
James West
Douglas Wilson
Colin Wright
Source:
He Shall Have Dominion
by Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry Jr,
pages 106-107

________

Thank God that regarding our Lord Jesus HE SHALL HAVE DOMINION.

"Postmillennialism holds that the Lord Jesus Christ established
His kingdom on earth through His preaching and redemptive
work in the first century and that He equips His church with the
gospel, empowers her by the Holy Spirit, and charges her with
the Great Commission to disciple all nations. Postmillennialism
expects that eventually the vast majority of men living will be
saved. Increasing gospel success will gradually produce a
time in history prior to Christ's return in which faith,
righteousness, peace, and prosperity will prevail in the
affairs of men and nations. After an extensive era of such
conditions the Lord will return visibly, bodily, and gloriously,
to end history with the general resurrection and the final
Judgment after which the eternal order follows."
___ Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry.
 

________________________________________________________________

I appreciate you posting the following:

I learned something valuable.

Josheb Wrote:

• Revelation 20 is the only place a thousand-year reign is mentioned.
• The word "thousand" occurs in a chapter rife with figurative language.
• There is a precedent of figurative use of the word "thousand" throughout the Bible. 
• There is no mention the thousand-year reign being on earth; the only thrones mentioned are in heaven. 
• Christ will not stop being Lord when a thousand years expire.

 

The "thousand" in Rev. 20 is figurative. :___Josheb

__________________________________________________

 

■ The Lord Jesus "shall have dominion from sea to sea" Psalm 72:8
■ "The whole Earth will be filled with His glory." Psalm 72:19
■ "All the nations will call Him blessed." Psalm 72:17
■ The Lord Jesus really meant it, when He commanded His Christian
Church to "go and make disciples of all the nations." Matthew 28:19

 

May God Bless us one and all.

 

JAG

 

 

``

 

 

  

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by JAG**

[ENOCH2010]

On 7/7/2020 at 8:38 AM, ENOCH2010 said:

If we are living in the 1000 year reign today, why is Christ not ruling with a rod of iron? If I understand the scriptures concerning the 1000 year reign, it sounds like the ruling government will be a theocracy, today the world is a far cry from a theocracy with a king ruling with a rod of iron.

Still waiting on Josh or Jag to reply on this.

[Don19]

I don't subscribe to postmillennialism at all. I find it contrary to many principles of Scripture. Paul said evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived (2 Tim 3:13), which is not the picture of postmillennialism. The people of God are only a remnant in this world (Joel 2:32; Rom 11:5; Mat 7:21-23; Luke 12:32, 13:24; 1 Jn 2:15-17), the kingdom of God is not of this world (Jn 18:36), and we are strangers and pilgrims here. Moreover, we are already seated with Christ in heavenly places (Eph 2:6) through the regeneration (Mat 19:28, Titus 3:5) through the gospel, even during tribulations and persecutions in this world. "Kings and priests" is something Jesus Christ has already made us into (Rev 1:5-6), having washed us from our sins in His own blood. It's a spiritual victory, an overcoming the world (Jn 16:33, 1 Jn 5:5), not a carnal victory.

I do not believe that the command God gave in Genesis 1:28 applies to everyone today, but was given relative to a specific time and place. It's certainly not for the church today, because both Jesus and Paul say otherwise. Paul suggested it would be good for the unmarried and widows to remain that way, but does not command it. Jesus also taught us to let the one who is able to remain celibate voluntarily do so (Mat 19:12). Not by way of command, as forbidding to marry is an apostate doctrine of devils - the prophecy of 1 Tim 4:1-3 applies to Roman Catholicism (also seen in its forbidding of meats at certain times).

Neither do I believe the great commission is the duty of every Christian. God equips only certain parts of the Body of Christ for such work.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Don19

[JAG**]

27 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Thanks for the info and the kind words. Remember: with me you're preaching to the

proverbial choir (and vice versa). I was attending a postmil partial-pret congregation

until a few years ago. Currently attending two congregations that are amil (one EPC,

the other PCA) but they tolerate me . I've spoken with the pastors and elders about

my views and they've accepted my views, acknowledged the fall within the pale of

orthodoxy, and set limits on their discussion within their flock. As one pastor put it,

"If you commenting and asking questions to further the conversation and contribute

then you're openly invited but if you're interested only in provocation please look

elsewhere," and it's been marvelous in both fellowships.

This stands in sharp contrast to one congregation I was considering. The by-laws and

membership requirements explicitly required a person to subscribe to Dispensational

Premillennialism. I asked about the Biblical measure of this requirement and inquired

what kind of diversity and tolerance might be found in the congregation (surely not 

everyone is DP?). I asked if I would be considered an asset since I've studied

eschatology for more than 20 years whether members like myself were considered

resources in the congregation and he said I could join but would be prohibited from

speaking about any other views besides the ones required by the by-laws. 

I've often wondered if he realizes that restriction would prohibit Augustine, Aquinas,

Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Spurgeon, Sproul and many, many, many other noted men

and women of God from ever being members of that congregation. 

Josheb,

Thank you for taking the time to reply and thank you for your comments.

Regarding Postmillennialism I have something to share with you and with

the thread.

I ask that you read every word of this within a Christian Postmillennial context.

{Give special attention to the book "Abundance" as a possibility for your next read.}

Here we go:

ITS GETTING BETTER ALL THE TIME , , ,

On a cheerful note I am rereading a book titled "Its Getting Better All The Time:

100 Greatest Trends Of The Last 100 Years, by Stephen Moore and Julian Simon.

Here are a couple of comments from the blurbs:

"A refreshing breath of optimism and sanity amidst all the gloom and

doom."__John Stossel ABC News

________

"This book is so chock full of good news that it's virtually guaranteed to cheer up

even the clinically depressed. Moore and Simon dismantle the doomsday pessimism

that's still so commonplace in academia and the media. The evidence they present

is irrefutable: Give people freedom and free enterprise and the potential for human

progress is seemingly limitless."__Lawrence Kudlow, Chief Economist, CNBC

_______________

ABUNDANCE , , ,

I am reading another book that is cheerful and uplifting to the human sprit.

The title is Abundance : The Future Is Better Than You Think by Peter

H. Diamandis and Steven Kotler. {Peter H. Diamandis is on You Tube.}

Here are a few quotes from the blurbs on the back cover:

"This brilliant must-read book provides the key to the coming era of abundance

replacing eons of scarcity. Abundance is a powerful antidote to today's malaise

and pessimism."___Ray Kurzweil

________

"This is an audacious and powerful read! Abundance shows us how today's philanthropists,

innovators, and passionate entrepreneurs are more empowered than ever before to solve

humanity's grand challenges." ___ Jeff Skoll

________

"Our world faces multiple crises and is awash in pessimism. Abundance redirects the

conversation. spotlighting scientific innovators working to improve people's lives.

The result is more than a portrait of brilliant minds -- it's a reminder of the infinite

possibilities for doing good when we tap into our own empathy and

wisdom." ___ Arianna Huffington

________

One more quote from the inside cover:

"Since the dawn of humanity, a privileged few have lived in stark contrast to the

hardscrabble majority. Conventional wisdom says this gap cannot be closed.

But it is closing -- fast."

______________

JAG Writes:

Abundance: The Future Is Better Than You Think has 386 pages

and is a gripping read especially if you love people and have an interest in the

future and have a continual prayer in your heart to God that He will increasingly

bless and provide for His people all over this world that He has created.

I personally have a keen interest in the future and in helping organizations that

are helping people.

Not only does my wife and I support our local Baptist Church with our tithes and offerings,

but we also support Compassion International by sponsoring a child in one of the Third World countries.

In addition to that we help support Samaritan's Purse which has as it's motto "Helping In Jesus Name.

God has blessed America with an $18 trillion dollar annual economy, and I thank God for that.

It has been said that "There is no limit to what God will do for the man that will use what God has given

him to help others." "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over,

will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Luke 6:38

You cannot out give God.

GOD BLESS AMERICA.

PS.

My interest in books like "Its getting Better All The Time: 100 Greatest Trends Of The Lost 100 Years"

and "Abundance: The Future Is Better Than You Think" is because I am vitally interested in the:

{1} success of all Christian Organizations that are helping hurting people around the world and needs $ funding

{2} success of Christian Missions which requires $ funding 

{3} success of The Gideon's  International that puts Bibles all over the world and requires $ funding {Bibles cost money}

{4} success of Samaritan's Purse, Franklin Graham's organization that requires $ funding   , , "Helping In Jesus' Name"

{5} success of Compassion International that helps children in poor countries and requires $ funding.

{6} success in maintaining God's Christian Churches throughout America and  the world, both their physical

infrastructure {Church buildings} and their Adult and Youth Programs and Music Programs and their

Missions Outreach Programs  all needing $ funding.

{7} success of America's millions of Families all of whom needs $ funding , , ,

, , , all {1} through {7} up there  requires $ funding.

___________

{1} through {7} up there understood within the context of the success of worldwide Christendom

as she advances The Great Commission of the Lord Jesus to His Christian Church given to her

by Him in Matthew 28:16-20.  

 

JAG

 

 

``

 

 

 

 

[JAG**]

9 minutes ago, Josheb said:

As a man thinketh, so he is. 
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks (and the fingers type ).

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is

good, and the evil man out of the evil treasure brigs forth what is evil, for a

person's mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. 
Guard your heart for from it are the outgoings of life. 

_______

I am a Christian psychologist. I am profoundly aware of how the intersection

of theology and psychology can have an enormous effect on a person's

life..... one  direction or the other. I see it on a daily basis. 

What we're talking about here in this op and throughout the Prophesy

and Eschatology boards is the reciprocity  occurring in the domain of

end times. Theologically, eschatology if not an essential doctrine.

However, practically speaking, one's view of the end can have a

very substantive effect on how one lives. Quite simply, if a person

believes the inevitable end is victory then s/he will act accordingly.

The problem to guard against is pride, unjustified over-confidence,

ad idealism. The dilemma between optimism and pessimism has

already been noted by a few here.  If you believe and think the

victory is inevitable you'll act accordingly. 

Conversely, if you think the world is going to hell in a hand basket

any day now then you'll at according to that belief (or should do so).

Whatever victory occurs between toady and the end is anomalous,

not the norm. This can have a direct impact on how one lives. I can

also have a direct effect on the spread of the gospel because outsiders

here us saying, "Jesus is coming tomorrow," followed by Jesus not

showing up. They watch Christians make false statements and they

wonder, "Are the fools or are they lying?" Either way, a reason for

not choosing Christ has been provided by the Christian. 

We must always remember this but we must also remember not to

put the cart before the horse. Our believing the end is decided does

not decide the end. The end was decided before creation was created.

We're all in the same boat trying to understand what God has said

about something He's already decided, with some believing God is 

intends His creation to go to hell in a handbasket before He acts and

others believing everything is exactly where God wants it at any given

point in time and it is all working toward a single victorious outcome

even when things appear otherwise from the human perspective.....

without a need for the world to be handed over to the accuser and the

Church to become so ineffective it needs rescuing. 

 

I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.

Wonderful are your works and my soul knows it well.

 

So burn it down. 

 

As a man thinketh, so he is.

We have reached a point where the Church is divided over how

things will end, and that is just ironic. 

``

 

 

Miscellaneous Points:

* I bolded some of your points up there that I found interesting.

* You are a Christian Psychologist. I recall reading where you had to

listen to some pretty awful stuff from some of the people you talk to.

* I can see how that would present a real challenge day in day out. 

My prayers are with you.  

* Thank you for your thoughts up there. 

Take care.

And God Bless.

JAG

 

[Alive]

35 minutes ago, Josheb said:

However, practically speaking, one's view of the end can have a very substantive effect on how one lives. Quite simply, if a person believes the inevitable end is victory then s/he will act accordingly. The problem to guard against is pride, unjustified over-confidence, ad idealism. The dilemma between optimism and pessimism has already been noted by a few here.  If you believe and think the victory is inevitable you'll act accordingly. 

Conversely, if you think the world is going to hell in a hand basket any day now then you'll at according to that belief (or should do so). Whatever victory occurs between toady and the end is anomalous, not the norm. This can have a direct impact on how one lives. I can also have a direct effect on the spread of the gospel because outsiders here us saying, "Jesus is coming tomorrow," followed by Jesus not showing up. They watch Christians make false statements and they wonder, "Are the fools or are they lying?" Either way, a reason for not choosing Christ has been provided by the Christian. 

I understand that your language here doesn't say that one's view does, but can and this is undeniably true. It can. However I think it bears saying that of the believers that I have known and fellowshipped closely with over the years, eschatology had little to do with their respective walking with their Lord. This is the case for myself--although I look for His return and long for it, it is not a driver of my choices. This being the case, for myself and most of those I have known, I suspect it is also true of a great many other saints.

It is easy to understand that as a psychiatrist (human behavior stuff), you would tend to see end time views as a singular motivator, but I rather think that my brothers and sisters follow their Lord because of the power of a New Life, the Holy Spirit and a love and appreciation for He that redeemed them.

[Alive]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The devil is in the details: what a person truly believes is reflected in their conduct. That's not my opinion. That's not the professional appraisal of a psychologist. It is the Word of God. As a man thinketh so he is and it is out of the abundance of his/her heart the mouth speaks (or the fingers type, or the treasure is spent, etc.). The goal is to have integrity between thought word, and deed. 

I am not a psychiatrist. Neither did is state imply or insinuate end times is a "singular motivator".  I would in fact argue it is not sufficiently the motivator it should be in many believer's lives, beginning with the premise "eschatology has little to do with the respective walking in the Lord." 

That is the problem!

Believing something that has little to do with the respective walking in the Lord is the problem. If a person truly believes the world will actually truly end any day now that will influence how s/he lives. If it does not then I have reason to question what or how much they believe. 

This all sounds very 'reasonable', but there is much more to the New Creation than these things. There is much more---a motivator for my own conversation since I first got saved over 45 years ago, is to take seriously our Lord's admonition to build up treasure in heaven as opposed to the other option. The result of that position is something that the world holds in disdain and makes me a very foolish and irresponsible individual and yet I trust my Lord--whenever and however He returns and my personal 'glorification' of body takes place. It simply does not matter to me my end time view in terms of my walking with Him.

I have seen and experienced things to make a grown man's hair curl that prove God and my Savior--He has done that for me. For me--which is beyond my ability to measure. The time, manner and relevant contemporary events simply do not enter into my scope of view. I know that I will see Him and all my brethren one day and all that I have wondered about and unable to look into, will be available. Its gonna be a wonderful eternity. After a few trillion years of learning about the Grace and Love of my Savior, I may have some time left to delve into the make up of the universe and how time and gravity are playing together.

So--these other things are relatively insignificant.

There are many views of the end times and nearly every one on this forum is sure of their view...perhaps one of them is correct, or perhaps none are.

I know another thing for sure--if the Lord desired to show me, then He would and I have asked Him recently.

[JAG**]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

It is a privilege to do what I do. Sadly, folks in my profession know things

no one should know; the world is a very dark and depraved place. Wonderfully,

though, I get to see people live amazing lives of healing and restoration in God's

might. It is an incredible experience seeing a couple more in love than they have

ever been, those bound in dependency learning trust and interdependence, and

people who have been treated worthlessly understanding how valuable they are

and walking in their true enduring identity. Know Whose you are if you wish to

know who you are .   

God Bless.

I have a prayer for you.

Mat the Lord greatly bless you.

May the Lord always keep you safe.

May the Lord make His face to shine upon you.

May the Lord  always be gracious unto you.

May the Lord always turn His face towards you.

May the Lord always give you peace.

May the Lord always protect all those you love.

{Based on Numbers 6:24-27}

PS

I am glad you enjoy your work and find it rewarding.

I can understand how it could be very rewarding.

Take care.

JAG

 

 

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yes, and isn't one of the ways we do that by maintaining integrity in thought, word, and deed so well that others are persuaded to consider the gospel by our example?

I think that you are applying a lot of energy to leverage a broad spectrum of our experience into your end time theory.

I understand  this, but imo, it is less important than many other aspects of the faith. In my experience, the light that draws souls to Christ is that aspect of His nature manifested in love and compassion. When I gavee reason for the hope that is within me to an elderly lady yesterday,  my theories of end times played no part.