The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I'm sorry, but you can't go changing the definitions of good biblical words. The word "Gentile" means "one who is not a child of Israel."

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Become a Christian, you be of Israel.

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You don't even know from what one is "falling away!" Haven't you learned that they have "fallen away" from God's Law?

646 apostasia
defection, revolt
leave, depart (implying desertion) a leaving from a previous standing

so maybe I do,  maybe I just see it in a different light

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (Greek: hee apostasia = "the standing-away-from") first, and that man of sin (Greek: ho anthroopos tees anomias = "the man of-the without-Law" or "the man with total disregard for God's Law") be revealed, the son of perdition (Greek: ho huios tees apooleias = "the son of-the ruin/destruction");

FOR THAT DAY shall not come...

By the focus on the words written, the Spiritual meanings of Gods Plan keep getting lost.  Falling away from Gods law, especially the 1st commandment, is falling away from God no matter how many definitions are used.  Satan wants us to go by the LETTER OF THE LAW because it takes our "eyes" of the Spiritual meanings written to and for us.  We must not forget 

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 Corinthians 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1 Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So when you judge someone with things like "they don't even know", you might want to take a closer look, especially if they don't possess much of the "learned" wisdom put forth by man.  Their eyes may have been opened in ways yours have not.  Judgement is Gods, we are to discern.  

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It doesn't have anything to do with being a Christian or not! Rav Sha`uwl "Paulos" ("Paul") was one sent to those who were NOT children of Israel

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

So when you make emphatic statements that are so blatantly incorrect, it gives me pause on all you put forth

 

I appreciate your time but the TOPIC of discussion is the Pre Trib Rap Theory of the Church and so the questions I asked were in reference to that specific time period but when taken out of that context....   

So besides other things, yes, It was important to THEM, I agree.  

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Become a Christian, you be of Israel.

And what an amazing thing! Adopted and heirs just like that. Many don't see this.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

646 apostasia
defection, revolt
leave, depart (implying desertion) a leaving from a previous standing

so maybe I do,  maybe I just see it in a different light

I think you have it right. It's a change from one way of thinking to another. In this case a defection from the Lord to the way of the world and following the beast. Many 'believers' will fall away.

 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Yes, those are the three accounts of the Olivet discourse, you are correct.

 

 

Yes, when you take into account all three examples from scripture, then we must apply facts established from any one of them to all three.  In this instance, regarding the falling away you will find a very specific sequence given in Luke.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

 

Now notice the last sentence from above, and does that sentence in your opinion speak to things we see within Revelation?  Now look at what follows it.

 

Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

Now these exact events as described by Luke took place to the disciples themselves, which we know not only through historical accounts but also scripture accounts.  In Matthew's account, we see the same thing, some parts are said in different words but speak to the same things, and others such as "You will be hated by all for my name's sake" are nearly word for word.  So per Luke, the events in verses 12-19 come before the more vaguely covered events in verses 10 and 11.  From Matthew's account, these are some of the phrases I am referring to.

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

John in his writings, also tells us that these events took place.

 

I John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

 

What John is describing in verse 19 is the falling away that was spoken of by Jesus, members of the early church departing the faith.  The reason why studying all three accounts is important, is because we get details from one that we do not get from the others.  Luke provides us with details that give us specific timing to this event, just as Mark gives us specific information as to who exactly was present.  From Luke's account, one could think that a large number of followers were the audience, from Matthew it is narrowed down to the disciples asking privately, but Mark gives us the exact names of the four present.

 

Mark 13:3 And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

 

 

I'm not sure what you define as the great falling away, so I'll address what I think you might mean and if you have something else in mind just reference the passage.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

In this passage, Paul relates in timing that the falling away and the man of lawlessness come prior to His coming and the gathering.  Paul does not say they are in close proximity to each other, only a sequence of events.  The falling away is the first order of the sequence, the man of lawlessness is second, but nothing specific as to how much time occurs between the two.  He also does not say how much time comes between either of these two things and His coming and our gathering.

So if the falling away Paul speaks of in this passage is the same falling away spoken of by Jesus in the Olivet discourse, the sequence was correct as that event came first.

 

I Timothy 4:Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

 

In his letter to Timothy, Paul speaks of a falling away, (this time in the other term of departing from the faith) which talks about later times, as in the future.  But his choice of words in regards to saying "some" doesn't equate to me as a "great falling away".  A falling away no doubt, but doesn't appear to be any more significant in number than the one spoken of by Jesus.

As I said in my original response, I see a condition that has existed for as long as the church has existed, one that ebbs and flows in conjunction with periods of great revivals.  For example, we have come through a period in recent times that many consider a time of great revival (70's and 80's).  However, leading up to this period of revival the church went through some drastic changes regarding the altar call.  The altar call prior to this was a very personal thing, done over a period of time that involved personal discipleship, but starting with the late Billy Sunday in more modern times, the altar call has morphed into more of an assembly line production.  I posted a video years ago that covers this transformation of the church history, I will find the link and share it with you here.  If you can find the time I think you will be glad you watched it, I believe it is about 45 minutes long, but well worth the watch.

In regards to where we are now, because of the changes in regards to how many came to the Lord, we are in a period rife for departure because so many were poorly rooted.  And I am by no means indicting every congregation or pastor by pointing this out, but keep in mind we live in the days of the mega-churches.  The church I attend is massive, and there is no humanly way possible for the pastor to have a personal handle on how each member of his flock is doing, in fact, there is no way he could even know each one of us personally.

In regards to your comments concerning the future, I have no doubt that a falling away will accompany the events we still consider future, but it has nothing to do with the falling away that happened in the first century which the disciples experienced themselves.  As someone once said, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Matt 24:34

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Mark 13:30

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Luke 21:32

Highly significant to the entire discourse.

The entire teaching from the question:

“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” - Matt 24:3

“Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?” - Mark 13:4

“Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?” - Luke 21:7

to the conclusion is a whole and it's for the generation that sees all the things in the discourse. Certainly the 1st century disciples experienced trials, etc., but this discourse falls under the umbrella of the terminal generation, 'that sees all these things'. 

That cannot be the 1st century as none of the events in the discourse have happened in relation to the return of Jesus in the sight of a single generation. That one sentence in all three gospels cements the discourse in the time/space continuum as future. 

 

 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Well let me put it this way then.  If you attended a church which received a letter from the apostle John himself, and he said to your church in the letter.

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

 

If this arrived to your church, from John, and you knew it was a reliable source, you wouldn't feel it was sent to your church but some church thousands of years down the road?  Then, consider this from another letter, and explain to me if this is in any way applicable to anyone alive today.

 

Revelation 2:13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

 

How many people since the time Antipas was killed in Pergamum could this apply to?

I agree with DeighAnn here. It's obvious the letters to the churches were to existing congregations circa 95 AD but they apply to all ages. Taken as whole, which must be done as very few teachings in scripture, if any, are fully realized by cherry picking desirable verses, we should understand the letters in relation to the entire Revelation of Jesus Christ. It doesn't seem reasonable to me to isolate the letters; divorcing the encouragement and warnings and rewards from the book of which they are a part.

The letters seems to represent the pep talk from the Lieutenant to the platoon before charging the hill. 

"Hear my instructions and heed them and you will overcome and be rewarded." 

"On the Lord’s day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, saying, “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”"  Rev 1:10

The entire vision was sent to the churches, not just the letters. So the content of the letters has everything to do with the context of the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the end of the age.

Not that the content of the letters has nothing to do with 2 millennia of church ideology, but primarily the content of the letters is encouragement for the church entering the end of the age, prep for the battle, the vision for steadfastness, and the reward.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Diaste

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

...

No, not really.  I believe many believe their church is a unit and by going to that church they are ok.  If not why would so many believe in rapture PT.  

Why would SO MANY believe in a rapture pretrib?  

You asked a good question. The answer is very simple: people believe in a pretrib rapture because they find a pretrib rapture written in God's words. 

Please note carefully: just become some can't seem to find it (the pretrib rapture) does not mean it is not there. It only means they have not at that time seen it. 

Questions people could asked:

Where exactly is the "trib" delineated or laid out in Revelation?
Where exactly is the rapture shown in Revelation in relation to the "Trib?"
Can the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan be separated in TIME?
Where exactly is the wrath of Satan in the book of Revelation in contrast to the wrath of God?

Most "tribbers" of any persuasion cannot answer these questions accurately. Yet, most think they know.

[Retrobyter]

50 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Become a Christian, you be of Israel.

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Well, sometimes one must "throw out the fleece" to "test the waters" (if you'll pardon the mixed metaphors).

What you quoted is absolutely true, IF one remembers that "Christ" means "the Messiah of God"; that is, "the One Anointed by God to be Israel's King."

However, consider the following Venn diagram / pie chart:

The top half of the rectangle (divided from the bottom half by a black line) represents the Gentile nations (or "Goyim" in Hebrew). The bottom half represents the children of Israel (or "bneey Yisra'eel" in Hebrew), here labeled "Israelis." The RED line tracks the difference between those who are inside the Kingdom of God and those who are outside the Kingdom of God. I believe you might consider all of the green area as "Christians," consisting of both Gentile believers and Israeli believers. Notice, too, that the black line is ERASED between the two by Ephesians 2:14. HOWEVER, the black line continues throughout the rest of the rectangle!

The red areas are people who will just REFUSE to come to the Messiah and be a part of God's Kingdom, whether "Jew" or "Greek." The Bible calls these people "sons of Belial" or "bneey bliyya`al" ("sons of a wearing out or failure in order to gain profit or benefit").

The blue areas are people who will become part of God's Kingdom during the Millennium.

The largest part of the children of Israel will return en masse at the beginning of the Millennium because they will recognize and accept the Messiah of God, Yeshua` the Son of David.

The "Sheep" nations are those who treated both the children of Israel and those Gentiles grafted into the "Olive Tree" well prior to the Messiah's return.

God will, throughout the Millennium, diminish the two red sections, and the red line will shift through the blue area above until the Kingdom completely engulfs the world. When the world empire of the Messiah grows to such an extent that there are no more enemies, then the LAST enemy - death - will also be defeated at the Great White Throne Judgment and the sentencing to the Lake of Fire.

Then, Paul tells us (1 Corinthians 15:20-28) that the Messiah Yeshua` ("the Christ Jesus") will deliver the Empire up to His Father, that God may be all in all. Then, Gavri'el ("Gabriel") tells us (through Miryam or "Mary") (Luke 1:30-33) that Yeshua` will go on reigning over Israel forever.

 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The apostles wrote and spoke in the terms of the last days as existing in their time.  Per the Olivet discourse the events began in their lifetimes, which Jesus expressly told them they would personally experience specific events.  So these first century churches were also part of that time.  The end times began with the first advent of Jesus.  He spoke during His ministry in terms of the last days being present tense.  This is why those 7 churches would be addressed in end time prophecy, because they were living it, and so has everyone in history since that time.  Take everything in the context it was written, right from the start of Revelation, look at John's words.

Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

You start here with a faulty premise, it is not the revealing of His return.  It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, from His first advent where He was first revealed up to the eternal state, because there is no end.  Revelation includes all of this, it addresses things that precede His second coming, includes His second coming, and goes beyond His second coming.

 

You start here with a faulty premise, it is not the revealing of His return.  It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, from His first advent where He was first revealed up to the eternal state, because there is no end. 

I like this sentence. God chose to included a time before Jesus rose from the dead all the way into eternity.  It is HIS revelation. 

[DeighAnn]

Where exactly is the "trib" delineated or laid out in Revelation? 

The witnesses arrive a few days before.  I would do the math but that takes me too long,  but you probably could pretty easy. Something about days being longer than moons or months and when all is said and done they have like 10 days more from what I remember.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.




Where exactly is the rapture shown in Revelation in relation to the "Trib?"
If by rapture you mean 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is so simple it will blow you away:
Jesus returns,
at the same time Satan is bound 1000 yrs
at the same time we all are changed
It is called the Lords Day, 1000 yrs

The only time confusion comes into play is when another "return" or "coming" is added to the WORD. 

The SECOND THAT HAPPENS

EVERYTHING ABOUT HIS RETURN COMES INTO QUESTION. 
ALL THE VERSES THAT SPEAK TO HIS RETURN COME INTO QUESTION.  
THE TIMING OF HIS RETURN COMES INTO QUESTION

ASK YOURSELF, WOULD GODS WORD,  SO SPECIFIC AS TO DIVIDE CLEAN  FOODS FROM  UNCLEAN FOODS

LEAVE WHAT WOULD BE ONE OF THE BIGGEST MIRACLES ever seen by flesh man
without a single verse of it's own?

LOOK AT THE DETAILS (though misunderstood) about the coming Messiah given in the OT.  Where He would be born, to whom He would be born, the bloodline He would come from, where He would travel, where He would grow etc....

LOOK AT THE LACK OF DETAILS of a PRE TRIB Body of Christ rap.  When does it happen, to whom does it happen, what happens after that, what happens on earth after that etc...

LOOK AT THE PROBLEMS on earth created IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE SATAN IS ANYONE OTHER THAN SATAN, impossible to "deceive" anyone, impossible for the earth to recover for years with billions of bodies to dispose of and complete restructuring of the system.  
AND WHY IS THERE NOT ONE WORD OF THE PRE TRIB BODY OF CHRIST IN HEAVEN AND WHAT HAPPENS?  DO THEY GO UP FOR THE WAR THAT RAGES BEFORE SATAN IS KICKED OUT.  WHAT ABOUT THE 1/2 HOUR OF SILENCE.  SEEMS TO ME HEAVEN HAS ENOUGH GOING ON WITH OUT THE ADDITION OF A COUPLE BILLION PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN TESTED OR JUDGED YET.


Can the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan be separated in TIME?

Absolutely.  These aren't even hard questions once you realize Christ is returning as Lord of lords and King of kings and not a second before that.  Satans' "wrath" is hidden, it is deceptive,  when you hear peace and safety,  then sudden destruction.  Separate enough?

Where exactly is the wrath of Satan in the book of Revelation in contrast to the wrath of God?
WHEN YOU SEE the beasts, the testing begins.  You say "wrath" because we know that he really hates those who love God but that is deceptive in the way that it leads people to believe that it will be noticeable destruction.  It isn't.  That is why we must watch, so we know what time it is.  If we don't Satan will come and deceive us.  

In my humble opinion

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You start here with a faulty premise, it is not the revealing of His return.  It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, from His first advent where He was first revealed up to the eternal state, because there is no end. 

I like this sentence. God chose to included a time before Jesus rose from the dead all the way into eternity.  It is HIS revelation. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

I like it, too, especially when you factor into it all the nuances of what is incorporated into the FULL title of the book:

Apokalupsis Ieesou Christou Heen Edooken Autoo Ho Theos,
Deixai Tois Doulois Autou Ha Dei Genesthai En Tachei

Apokalupsis = An-Uncovering
Ieesou = of-Yeshua`
Christou = Messiah
Heen = Which
Edooken = Gave
Autoo = To-Him
Ho = The
Theos, = God,
Deixai = To-Show
Tois = To-The
Doulois = Servants/Slaves
Autou = Of-Him
Ha = What-Things
Dei = Must
Genesthai = Take-Place
En = In
Tachei = Quickness

An-Uncovering of-Yeshua` Messiah Which Gave To-Him The God,
To-Show To-The Servants/Slaves Of-Him What-Things Must Take-Place In Quickness

Rewriting this in English sentence structure, we get...

An Uncovering of Yeshua` Messiah Which God Gave To Him
To Show To His Servants/Slaves What Things Must Take Place In Quickness

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Become a Christian, you be of Israel.

And what an amazing thing! Adopted and heirs just like that. Many don't see this.

I KNOW.  It's very telling.  One of the ways we SEE whether someone's "doctrine" is more important than Gods Word.  

I am finding it much like a poker game except EVERYONE  who follows this doctrine has the same TELL. 
Just as everyone who follows that (whatever other one)  doctrine has the same TELL.  
And the same questions are always skipped over like it wasn't asked.

Once you get the TELLS down, the Truth speaks longer and louder.   

AND they all have one thing in common  They go to the LETTER of the Law, the wisdom of man.  The truth in Gods Plan, the simplicity in Christ gets all mixed up.

When I first started doing this (last couple years) I was almost scared away by  being told or questioned with the  "you don't understand or if you knew anything... or your context is all wrong".  But as I have "no doctrine" that needs certain facts to work or it all falls apart, I found that no matter the conversation, I could always just go to the Word and find GODS TRUTH.  And in the end it is undisputable.  God has planned for every contingency and man doesn't stand a chance against His Truth.

It feels like the doctrines of today are just like the laws that had been put out by the "men of God" back when Jesus walked the earth.  They are BINDING.  Gods Word grows when it is set free of "mans conditions" put upon it.  I digress and am sorry, things you already know and understand,  I hope you don't mind,  I just need to vent sometimes