Will the Elect reign "on the earth" or "over the earth" for 1,000 years?

[RonaldBruno]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

I  like that. All except one part. 

 

Can you show me where scripture speaks of a "Church age"? 

and

Do you ever question the premise when you read other teach a "Church age," or is it accepted as a given without any question regarding where scripture explicitly speaks of such a thing?

History is typically divided into periods of time, epochs, ages. Likewise the Bible has the period of time from tha Garden to the Flood, Post flood to Abraham, Abraham to Moses, then the Law and the Prophets and then Grace. So its just chapters in history ( steps or dispensations if you will) that are distinctly different, characterized by  a major change, purpose and order of things.

The best age will be the Millenial kingdom and then eternity after that.

[dhchristian]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you ever question the premise when you read other teach a "Church age," or is it accepted as a given without any question regarding where scripture explicitly speaks of such a thing?

It is Known as the dispensation of the grace of God to the gentiles, See also Romans 11:25

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (See Eph1:10ff)

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. (Ephesians 3:1-7)

[Sister]

BibleReader

There is a new government coming that shall reign over the earth from the earth.  This new government is the kingdom of God and shall be given to the saints of the Most High to reign with Christ.  This Kingdom is Christ's inheritance, and the inheritance of the saints.  To restore law and order to all the nations and govern accordingly so that all can live in peace.

The nations will still have their leaders, but they are in subjection to Christ and his saints who will guide and oversee them.  The leaders will have to be taught, and their duty is to run their nations according to the new international law, which is the law of the Lord.

The action will happen down here, not up there.  This is the inheritance of Christ and his saints, to have this position of power and to make a difference by establishing the kingdom and bringing in peace.  I am sure they can travel to and fro to heaven when called, but for the time being, they are needed here for they have a big cleaning up job to do with Christ.

The saints of the first resurrection have inherited everything, but are called to do this job on the earth first.  All must be cleaned up and the wicked filtered out before evil is finally destroyed and all traces of it gone.

Having control of the earth instead of wicked men is the reward of the saints.  At the moment wicked men answer to no one, but the day comes when they will have to answer to Christ and his saints who have the power to bless or punish.  There will be much responsibility and much activity going on.

 

 

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Again, I appreciate the attempted response and I greatly appreciate the use of scripture but I again point out none of what was quoted states there is a "Church age."

I gave you scripture, verse 5 speaks of ages, and the mystery of this age, what age is that the age of the grace of God being manifested to the gentiles, this is the church age. Paul speaks of this in Romans 11, calling this the time of the gentiles... So sorry you are incapable of having a civil conversation without belittling the opponents response as this is not how you have a conversation, a dialogue, so it is not worth debating with you further, because you are incapable of using simple logic to draw conclusions. Simplicity is in the teachings and Gospel of Jesus (2 Cor 11:3) complexity and elitism is part of the harlot religion of Babylon. 

Question: "What is the Church Age? Where does the Church Age fit in biblical history?"

Answer: An “age” is an historical period of time or an era. Some historians divide human history into many epochs and name them according to their defining characteristics: Middle Ages, Modern Age, Postmodern Age, etc. Biblical history, too, can be divided into different eras. When those divisions emphasize God’s interaction with His creation, we call them dispensations. More broadly, biblical history can be divided into two periods, roughly following the division of Old and New Testaments: the Age of the Law and the Church Age.

The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost (Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth. It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace. In prophetic history, it falls between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11). Jesus predicted the Church Age in Matthew 16:18 when He said, “I will build my church.” Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.

The Church is composed of those individuals who have by faith accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior and Lord (John 1:12; Acts 9:31). Therefore, the Church is people rather than denominations or buildings. It is the Body of Christ of which He is the head (Ephesians 1:22-23). The Greek word ecclesia, translated “church,” means “a called-out assembly.” The Church is universal in scope but meets locally in smaller bodies.

The Church Age comprises the entire dispensation of Grace. “The law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:17). For the first time in history, God actually indwells His creatures, permanently and eternally. In other dispensations the Holy Spirit was always present and always at work, but He would come upon people temporarily (e.g., 1 Samuel 16:14). The Church Age is marked by the Holy Spirit’s permanent indwelling of His people (John 14:16).

Scripture makes a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church (1 Corinthians 10:32). There is some overlap because, individually, many Jews believe in Jesus as their Messiah and are therefore part of the Church. But God’s covenants with the nation of Israel have not yet been fulfilled. Those promises await fulfillment during the Millennial Kingdom, after the Church Age ends (Ezekiel 34; 37; 45; Jeremiah 30; 33; Matthew 19:28; Revelation 19).

The Church Age will end when God’s people are raptured out of the world and taken to be with the Lord (1 Corinthians 15:51-57). The rapture will be followed in heaven by the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:6-9) as the Church, the Bride of Christ, receives her heavenly reward. Until then, the Church carries on in hope, exhorted to “stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58).

https://www.gotquestions.org/church-age.html

 

[RonaldBruno]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

Thank you for the response but that is not an actual answer to either of my questions. 

Can you show me where scripture speaks of a "Church age"? 

and

Do you ever question the premise when you read other teach a "Church age," or is it accepted as a given without any question regarding where scripture explicitly speaks of such a thing?

 

Here's a third: Are you aware that when the the ECFs and every up until the 1800s spoke of "dispensations" they did so in the context of covenants? This is one of the reasons why I ask the first two questions. I was just reading something by Dispensationalist Herman Hoyt in which he states, "It is impossible to interpret the Bible apart from some arrangement of dispensations; and most certainly the very mention of an eschatological millennium imposes another dispensation." He is, in fact, grossly mistaken and misleading his readers. For 1800 years all of Christendom managed to interpret the Bible apart from some arrangement of dispensations! Nowadays a certain portion of the Church takes this model for granted, most of them completely oblivious to the fact it is neither the historical approach of the Church nor the exegetical one. So let me ask you again, and please do not take the inquiries as a personal attack or get frustrated if you cannot find any such scriptures. If you've got scriptures then I can proceed based on those texts and if not then we can discuss the significance of that absence.

Can you show me where scripture speaks of a "Church age"? 

and

Do you ever question the premise when you read other teach a "Church age," or is it accepted as a given without any question regarding where scripture explicitly speaks of such a thing? 

I thought I answered both your questions with a broad stroke. Specifically _ as you already know_ the phrase "Church Age" is not there, but the concept is.  Identifying what the word "age" means (aion or aionios) is the first step_ since you know what Church means. It's a period of time with a beginning and an ending. The Church began at Pentecost and continues. There was an abrupt change in history that caused this - ordained by God. Then Church  is currently sanctified from the rest of the sinful, unsaved world. This continues up to the end of the Great Tribulation, another abrupt change caused by God. Then a new age, which is also a Church Age but without sin and evil, with false religions, without Satan. So I guess we can call that the Church Age (part 2) or just the Millenial Kingdom. 

Do you have a problem with compartmentalizing, separating historical time periods and labeling them? The phrase, "Age of Innocence" isn't  written in the Bible either, but most could figure out that it had to do with Adam a d Eve's beginning up to their sin. The many names of Biblical  doctrines taught are'nt found in scripture, yet are they not true? By doing so it is puttimg things into perspective and order. 

It is apparent that God's plan for the world has contained specifically identifiable periods of time, separated by monumental changes.

[RonaldBruno]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, I am well aware the NT writers did, on occasion, use the word "dispensation," or "economy," or "stewardship." I am also aware of the fact for 1800 years this was understood in the context of covenant, not some new theological construct redefined in the 1800s by John Darby. I have read Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Pentecost, Ryrie, Walvoord, Ice, and Vlach and done so in their own words. I don't need a Bible verse stating the word "dispensation." I am also well aware the NT is about the new revealing of the Messiah and the fulfillment of the related OT prophesies. I am aware of how the NT writers, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, explained the OT prophesies in ways that were not obvious in the OT. I've posted two ops on the matter. I don't need and did not ask for verses about the mystery of Christ and how in ages prior to the first century incarnate he was not known. I am well aware the Gentiles can now be fellow heirs and partakers of God's promise in Christ and how this single-handedly undermines the entire dispensational construct because the Gentiles are grafted into an already existing tree; they are not separate. I do not need, nor did I ask, for that information. 

What I would like is the verse stating there is a "Church age." 

Again, I appreciate the attempted response and I greatly appreciate the use of scripture but I again point out none of what was quoted states there is a "Church age." This shouldn't be difficult. It should take three or more exchanges. If there is a verse then quote it  or cite it. If there is none then just say so. "Josh, there is no such verse. It is a paradigm inferred from scripture." I understand the inferential argument by which a "Church Age" is asserted. Not what I asked for. 

 

Can you show me where scripture speaks of a "Church age"? Is there a specific verse to which I can turn and read scripture explicitly mentioning a "Church age"? 

Do you ever question the premise when you read other teach a "Church age," or is it accepted as a given without any question regarding where scripture explicitly speaks of such a thing? 

 

Let me quote from Dispensationalist Herman Hoyt. He's critiquing non-dispensational premillennialist George Eldon Ladd's view of the Millennium.

"...there is a progressive triumph in Christ's kingdom as set forth in Corinthians 15:23-26, in which Christ completes the subjugation of his enemies. The first stage is marked by the resurrection of Christ himself. This is followed by an undefined period of time, the Church Age. Then comes the parousia and the resurrection of the saved. This is followed by another period undefined by 1 Corinthians 15, but which is defined in Revelation 20 as the millennial kingdom. The third stage is the end when Christ will raise the wicked dead and judge them, and then turn the kingdom over to the Father for eternity."

 

1 Corinthians 15:23-26
"But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,  then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.  The last enemy that will be abolished is death."

 

As everyone can see, there is no Church Age mentioned in those four verses and the otherwise well-educated, esteemed, and devoted-to-Christ theologian got it incorrect and is teaching erroneously. 1 Cor. 15:23-26 does not state what he says it says and great liberties have to be taken inferentially to make it say what he says it says. Hoyt has said there are only three "stages," but what he listed is five. 

1) Christ's resurrection, 
2) the Church Age,
3) the resurrection of Christians,
4) the millennium,
5) the final judgment.

 

The 1 Corinthians 15 text, however, lists only three:

1) Christ's resurrection,
2) the resurrection of those who are his at his coming, 
3) the end.

Premils, Amils, and Postmils all use the term "Church Age" but they do so in vastly different ways. The Dispensational Premil defines the term differently than the Historic Premil, the Amil, and the Postmil so when Dispies use the term the do so in a manner completely different from everyone else. This is misleading because the Dispensationalist incorrectly believes everyone knows whereof s/he posts and all the readers mistakenly they understand what they are reading. It's like conversing with a Jw or LDS about Jesus Christ: same terminology but entirely different definitions. 

 

So I am asking you where scripture speaks of a Church Age. Where does scripture ever mention something called a "Church Age"? And I am asking if the claim of a Church Age has ever been questioned and scripture ever examined in this regard or is it simply and solely something accepted without question regarding where scripture explicitly speaks of such a thing?

 

 

.

Josheb, what would YOU call the period of time from Pentecost to the Millennial kingdom? 

[Alive]

@Josheb You have shown a negative. Can you show a positive...using scripture, of course.

not inferential and not ECF historical, but from scripture.

[Alive]

I can’t find any scriptural reference to a Church Age. In its absence, what do You offer.

I am not aiming at semantics, but something substantial.
Or perhaps, what is the point and what does it aim at?

Or, if it helps and I admit I am floundering to a point....what violence to Truth, does referring to a slot of time as the Church Age?

[Alive]

Ya—I can’t find a single item in what you just wrote that I disagree with.

In terms of the continuity of the elect of God—-called out by and for His purpose.

I agreed fully in the One tree we are grafted into. I see the Cross and its application and results moving forward in time, as being a confirmation and unionizing power of what went On before.

In Christ—on one side of the Cross, there are distinctions of groups. On the other side of the Cross, they all dissolve. This isn’t simply a semantic or a suggestion. It is a reality, as God sees it and in fact has made to be.

One group, one family. When Paul spoke about neither Jew, gentile, male or female, he wasn’t saying we should ignore those distinctions. He was saying they are no longer—“in Christ”, which is to say, in God’s Economy.

Many today, say—i am a baptist or some other group. The Truth is, that to be a Christian (God’s family), is to be nothing else but. All that went before, from Abraham on and in God’s mind prior—is a continuity, that played out in time and space. The Reality—all things summed up in He who made it all and redeemed what He made to bring all back into harmony.

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Nope. That is not what I asked. You are answering questions not asked and ignoring what was asked. 

Where is there any explicit mention of a "Church Age" in the Bible? 

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev. 3:20)

You ignored a whole link about what the church age is, so do not accuse me of not answering your question. The Word church is in the Bible and the word age/ages are in the bible. The age of the Fathers refers to the time before Moses, Now though this Phrase "age of the fathers" is not found specifically in scripture, the concept is as Israel appealed to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as their fathers. It is all just simple reasoning. Before the church began and the time of grace came there was no church after acts 2 there was a church Therefore after acts 2 is when the church age began, and we are still living therein as the church is still active and operating in the world. This is just simple logic even children can understand....edited out the end of this sentence as it clearly violates the TOS.