Calvinism vs. Arminianism- Are we missing the boat?

[Gideon]

11 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Wrong again. I found a factual error without taking any personal offense. I also found a gross internal contradiction within the op whereby a large portion of Christendom was treated derisively (whether intended or not) in a post about diligence, fruit-bearing, and life-examination. I did that without taking any personal offense, too. 

I understand these concepts may be new to you and some of the others but it is really quite possible to remain kind and patient and forbearing when pointing out errors in what we read. It really is possible to note a factual or rational error and not be personally offended. 

You should try it sometime. 

 

The op states the whole topic of Calvinism vs Arminianism is a smokescreen of the enemy and it implies those engaging in that topic do so to convince themselves of their salvation AND are deceived! 

That is what is stated. 

I have brought the matter to your attention just as Matthew 5 directs me to do. I provided evidence to prove the errors, both from the writings of Calvin and Arminius and from scripture. I have done so in a manner consistent with 1 Cor. 13:4-7. I have done so several times just as Titus 3 tells me to do. Having gotten nowhere I have moved on, just as Titus 3 tells me to do. I have practiced diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, thereby demonstrating the very things the op is discussing. Several others here have noted the same problem. The matter has been established by two or more witnesses. 

It's not personal, Gideon, and I feel fairly confident everyone here who has agreed with me did so for your edification, in hopes and trusts of positive change, believing the best about you, and doing so such that all in observance might also benefit. You clearly will have nothing to do with any of it. I noted the misspelling was corrected so I know you have it within you to self-correct your own errors. 

 

 

Whether any offense was intended or not and whether any offense is taken or not that's a pretty crappy thing to say about those in the body of Christ. It is also unnecessary because the op could have been posted AND discussed without ever mentioning Calvinism or Arminianism. Furthermore, when it comes to diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, three of the concerns stipulated in the op both Calvin AND Arminius and their respective soteriologies are in fairly uniform agreement, so the sentences aren't just mean and unnecessary; they are factually and rationally incorrect. 

And at this point you're not going to get any other response from me unless or until the errors is corrected. I recommend either deleting the two sentences in question or rewording them to better reflect the kindness you believe you possess, better reflect the agreement Calvinism and Arminianism have with the rest of the op, and simply to be more accurate factually. But you do what you want. You can continue to accuse me of wrong motives and intent but I will simply copy and paste these last two paragraphs until things change. 

Let me show you. 

 

Whether any offense was intended or not and whether any offense is taken or not that's a pretty crappy thing to say about those in the body of Christ. It is also unnecessary because the op could have been posted AND discussed without ever mentioning Calvinism or Arminianism. Furthermore, when it comes to diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, three of the concerns stipulated in the op both Calvin AND Arminius and their respective soteriologies are in fairly uniform agreement, so the sentences aren't just mean and unnecessary; they are factually and rationally incorrect. 

 

 

And at this point you're not going to get any other response from me unless or until the errors is corrected. I recommend either deleting the two sentences in question or rewording them to better reflect the kindness you believe you possess, better reflect the agreement Calvinism and Arminianism have with the rest of the op, and simply to be more accurate factually. But you do what you want. You can continue to accuse me of wrong motives and intent but I will simply copy and paste these last two paragraphs until things change.

 

 

Whether any offense was intended or not and whether any offense is taken or not that's a pretty crappy thing to say about those in the body of Christ. It is also unnecessary because the op could have been posted AND discussed without ever mentioning Calvinism or Arminianism. Furthermore, when it comes to diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, three of the concerns stipulated in the op both Calvin AND Arminius and their respective soteriologies are in fairly uniform agreement, so the sentences aren't just mean and unnecessary; they are factually and rationally incorrect. 

 

 

And at this point you're not going to get any other response from me unless or until the errors is corrected. I recommend either deleting the two sentences in question or rewording them to better reflect the kindness you believe you possess, better reflect the agreement Calvinism and Arminianism have with the rest of the op, and simply to be more accurate factually. But you do what you want. You can continue to accuse me of wrong motives and intent but I will simply copy and paste these last two paragraphs until things change.

 

 

Whether any offense was intended or not and whether any offense is taken or not that's a pretty crappy thing to say about those in the body of Christ. It is also unnecessary because the op could have been posted AND discussed without ever mentioning Calvinism or Arminianism. Furthermore, when it comes to diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, three of the concerns stipulated in the op both Calvin AND Arminius and their respective soteriologies are in fairly uniform agreement, so the sentences aren't just mean and unnecessary; they are factually and rationally incorrect. 

 

 

And at this point you're not going to get any other response from me unless or until the errors is corrected. I recommend either deleting the two sentences in question or rewording them to better reflect the kindness you believe you possess, better reflect the agreement Calvinism and Arminianism have with the rest of the op, and simply to be more accurate factually. But you do what you want. You can continue to accuse me of wrong motives and intent but I will simply copy and paste these last two paragraphs until things change.

That's all you'll get from me in this op until I read a change in the opening of the op because I have no reason to trust anything you say. Your personal views on Calvinism or Arminianism are inconsequential to me because a profound lack of knowledge bordering on sheer ignorance was demonstrated with the op's claims. And I doubt you want this op to turn into a moratorium on your views of Calvinism and Arminianism. Would that not be self-defeating? 

 

So I'm moving on now. 

When I have time I'll post other replies to the rest of the op because there's a lot of good content there and there's some stuff worth further clarifying and a few things needing some correction. 

Brother, I understand if you must move on. May God be with you. 

blessings, 

Gids

[Gideon]

27 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You left out the Cals and Arms both trying to convince themselves of their own salvation and both being deceived.  

How about we take a look at diligence and examination? 

Peter wrote quite bit more on the matter than is contained in the single verse the op quotes. He starts out asserting we (already) have everything we need and can participate in the divine nature! That's an extraordinary claim, imo; one that begs what follows because it prompts us to ask ourselves (examination) "Do I believe what I just read?" and I think what he then writes is in anticipation of that very question. He then pins the entire experience on our sanctification and our propensity to forget the very core and profound reality. 

Whatdya think?

"You left out the Cals and Arms both trying to convince themselves of their own salvation and both being deceived. "

Brother, are  you actually serious? From my opening statement, you have somehow twisted it into this? I have no idea how to convince you otherwise. You have fixated on wanting to take offense and it is growing in size, and none of it is true.  Can you not just take my word for it that I meant no ill will? Please read my post I just made. I hope it will let you rest on the matter. 

blessings, Josh

Gids

Edited August 8, 2020 by Gideon

[Tristen]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

Baloney! The word "believe" does not speak to the author's intent. 

The word" intent" means "purpose" or "something a person is resolved to do." The word "believe" means "to hold as truth," or "to hold as opinion." So neither definition of belief is identical to the definition of intent. If the sentence was reworded to place the "I believe" at the beginning of the statement the sentence would read, 

I believe the whole topic of Calvinism vs Arminianism is ultimately a smokescreen from the enemy. 

So whether held as an opinion or truth it's a cr@ppy way to begin an op that is not intended to denigrate. Or was it? The dross is made worse because the stated his opinion is wrong. If that sentence had appeared in the soteriology board where Cals and Arms routinely and vigorously debate what has remained unresolved for 500 years it would be different. This Op did not just fall into the General Discussion board. It did not fall out of the Soteriology board. Conscious intentional decisions were made to place this op where it is at, outside of the soteriology board. Why then start by telling every, including the 90% of Protestants who are Calvinist or Arminian that the whole topic in which they believe is from the enemy?

Why do that? 

The answer to that question goes to intent. 

Again I point out this did not happen in a vacuum. Every word of the op was posted with some intent, either consciously known or unawares and scripture is quite clear to say that it is out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks (and the fingers type). It was out of the abundance of the heart his fingers began this op saying he believes the whole topic of Cal v Arm is a smokescreen from the enemy.  

So let me point out what has just happened: you've read something into the op that is not written. You say the op is "simply an expression of concern that some Christians are being deceived into an unbalanced focus on this debate," but none of that is anywhere stated in the op. And I'm not sure any progress is gained in this disagreement between the two of us by amending Gideon's motive to say he thinks Cals and Arms are deceived!  How is that any better? The fact is, he did not say he was concerned for Cals and Arms. He did not say Cals and Arms were being deceived. He did not say it was "unbalanced," and as I have already posted both Calvin and Arminius agreed diligence, producing fruit, examining our lives are all necessities. Even if he were correct about some aspect of Calvinism or Arminianism he is not correct about the particulars of the op because Calvin and Arminius agreed. He said he believed the whole topic of Calvinism vs Arminianism was of the enemy. Logic would then dictate anything he believes in agreement with Calvinism or Arminianism is likewise from the enemy! I was not the only one who observed the questionable opening. 

So what by reading into the op things that are not actually written while accusing me of doing the same a problem arises. Under otherwise ordinary and objective circumstances the practice of that which is reportedly disdained is called hypocrisy. Do not be that guy. More importantly, Gideon is quite capable of speaking for himself and he has done so. He does not need you to explain or defend him. Here's what scripture says about what you're doing. 

Proverbs 26:17
"Like one who takes a dog by the ears Is he who passes by and meddles with strife not belonging to him."

Perhaps it is thought because this is a public forum it is okay to speak for another and explain his posts without him. Perhaps the original motive was to provide well-meaning insight and correction for me under the auspices of the "right" to post anything to anyone at anytime as long as it meets the tou. Perhaps it is thought, "I'm gonna argue with Josh as he argues with Gideon and give him a taste of his own medicine." Perhaps the intent is to rescue one brother from another. Perhaps it started out well-intentioned but the moment things not stated in the op were read into it any potential efficacy of good intentions were lost. 

My conflict is with the op and this disagreement is not making it better. Belief is not intent and the dissent is based on things you are reading into the op and the author's intent. 

I have moved on. 

 

Titus 3:9-11
"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.  Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,  knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned."

So that's what I did. I tried to show him the error of unnecessarily beginning an op with wrongful derision, whether made as a personal opinion or truth statement, or even just a an unintended mistake. I provided evidence the belief is demonstrably incorrect regarding the subsequent particulars of the op, diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, and I provided a pair of suggestions for how the matter could be resolved. The solution was simple: either remove the derogatory opinion about Cals and Arms or -since Calvin AND Arminius agreed on the matters of diligence, fruit-bearing, and self-examination - say something nice and unifying. And you've read his refusal to do that.  I did so once, twice, thrice. Rebuffed in all three attempts I moved on. I did what I was supposed to do in obedience to God's word.

 

I've moved on. Why haven't you?

I've got three or four posts about later comments made in the op and I have affirmed that which bears integrity with scripture and corrected or refuted that which does not bear integrity with scripture. I have noted where both Cals and Arms agree on several points found in the op. I have provided a quote of the larger 2 Peter 1 text - which is an amazing passage! - to show the reader the necessity of diligence, fruit-bearing and self-examination suggested by Peter.  

That should foster a less divided conversation. 

“neither definition of belief is identical to the definition of intent”

So now you are misinterpreting me.

 

“So let me point out what has just happened: you've read something into the op that is not written. You say the op is "simply an expression of concern that some Christians are being deceived into an unbalanced focus on this debate," but none of that is anywhere stated in the op”

What actually “happened” is that I used my own words to show you how I interpreted the OP. You and I interpreted the OP differently. It would therefore be redundant and pointless for me to use the authors own words to convey my impression of the OP.

 

“My conflict is with the op and this disagreement is not making it better”

The reason for my engagement is that I'm not sure that any “conflict” should exist. Given how I read the OP, it feels like you have generated a “conflict” unnecessarily.

 

“I have moved on”

Lol. What?

 

“I've moved on. Why haven't you?”

I'm just responding to your comments. That's how conversations work.

A two page thesis on why you are right and I am wrong suggests you haven't “moved on”.

Anyway – since you are starting to misinterpret me, and I don't care about the “Cal vs Arm” issue, my interest here has waned.

 

[Gideon]

22 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I can certainly agree we have an obligation (not just a responsibility) from God to examine ourselves but I find the prospect of finding out whether we "truly" "be in the faith," a curious one because as I search through the scriptures for that phrase I am struck by the clear uniformity and the undeniable fact the phrase is used in ways where the first century believer is 1) assumed to be a true Christian and 2) empowered by God to be so. 

Acts 16:5
"So the churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily."

1 Corinthians 16:13
"Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong."

2 Corinthians 13:4-5
"For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.  Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?" 

 Philippians 1:21-25
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.  But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.  But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;  yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.  Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith..."

1 Timothy 3:13
"For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus."

Titus 1:10-15
"For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,  who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.  One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."  This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,  not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.  To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled."

 

In fact I think we all could (and should) agree that even the most crazy believers (like those in Corinth) were treated as if they were in fact true converts to Christ in the epistolary and the comparatively few mentions of those whose salvation is either repudiated or questioned are the exceptions to the rule, not the rule. Fundamentally, there is a simple dichotomy at the foundation of this "truly in the faith" issue because unbelievers are not believers. Since our salvation is by grace through faith for works our salvation is by grace alone. This is one of the reasons I noted the verses in the op were all by Christians to Christians about Christians; all about post-conversion conditions. This is one of the reasons I noted with another poster that the works aspect of our salvation is the purpose of our salvation, not the means of our salvation. One might correctly ask, "What is a salvation without purpose?" Blessedly, God has answered that question: we are created in Christ for good works God planned in advance for us to perform! And I suspect (hope) we can all agree some of those works are common, or universal, to us all (like kindness, patience, generosity, etc.) and some of them are unique to each and every individual - many parts, each with a unique place and purpose within God's purpose (1 Cor. 12:20). 

Seven billion people on the planet and no two are alike. Each bearing the image of God. Two-and-a-half billion Christians in the world (assuming them all true converts ) all bearing the additional image of God found in Christ Jesus. All with common works and each with individual works planned for them in advance of their salvation. Such is the might, majesty, and sovereignty of God. 

How then would it be imagined we might wrest ourselves from the blood-bought grasp of the Almighty?

How then would it be imagined diligence unneeded or fruit-bearing not inevitable? 

A believer is a believer and not a non-believer (the simple dichotomy; a blunt binary), but sadly the faithfulness of the faithful ebbs and flows and is measured and meted out based on increasing faithfulness - diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination because no one can have a moment of doubt and not ask, "Will I believe?" and the works God brings us daily - if we are willing and awake - are ever-demanding more of us, ever-demanding maturity, ever-demanding Christlikeness, ever-inspired-and-empowered by God Himself. He works all things for good in the lives of those who love Him and are called..... according to His purpose(s). Saved for works He had already planned for us to perform. 

Diligence, fruit, and examination born of the flesh gets us nowhere. Apart from Christ our even righteousness is filthy rags. 

Brother, if you do not mind nor take offense, I would rather stick to the true gist of my OP. I have stated it several times to you to try to clarify why I made the post. 

However, no matter what I say or do not say, you are determined to undermine the post by finding something... anything.... to find fault with. I will not join you in your endeavor. 

I would also like to ask you one question. What does "moving on" mean to you? It is obvious to me that your interpretation and mine differ. I have tried and will continue to try to be polite as I refuse to get into an intellectual battle on this matter with you. 

However, it seems to me that we have arrived at a stalemate of sorts where no profit is there for any other readers. How about, since my posts seem to offend you, you simply ignore my offerings and chalk them up  to a simple failure on our parts to communicate.  

I wish you no ill, That is God's truth. But no matter how hard I have tried to re-direct our conversation back to what I am trying to convey to those reading my posts, you counter with another attack and another reason to get offended, and pull the conversation away from what I am sharing. It is almost as if you do not want that talked about. I simply cannot figure out why that is. 

Be well. 

Gids

Edited August 8, 2020 by Gideon

[Wayne222]

When Paul wrote the words examine yourself wither you be in the faith. We should remember in what context he was writing this. He was writing to the Corinthians that had ongoing sin problems and divisions and were walking according to the flesh. We are not commanded to examine ourselfs on a on going basis as if there could be at anytime doubt that we are saved.

                      Only if there is a practice of sin in a believer life should this be applied to one self. We are to have full assurance of our salvation. The bible is plain about the fact we are sealed by the holy spirit. Growing in christ is a long process that is complicated.  You may not notice the growth for one. And a lot of times its through our suffering and various trials that we grow in christ and become more like him. 

                   Also the word of God the scriptures or the letters of the Apostles are our food to grow in the faith. The more we study and walk by the instructions of the Apostles we will grow. And it's the holy spirit that makes the scriptures come alive to us and brings understanding to our minds.

            If a believer is not growing it's most likly they are not devoted to the scriptures and lack prayer he loved and are busy in other things. Let's not judge weither one is saved or not but uplift our brethren in the faith.

                     To abide in christ means to abide in his love. What is christ love ? He gave up himself for us and become sin and died on the cross. We likewise will love our brother like he loved us. If we are doing this then we will bear fruit.

                  All born again believers are in christ. Some bear fruit more then others. But we are justified by the blood of christ and not our works. We are saved for good works which happens when we become born again. I dont judge any believer weither they are truly saved. The bible does not tell me to do this. 

                I look at all believers as my brother or sister. I trust Jesus as the shepherd to take care of his sheep . He says feed my sheep. He wants us to encourage each other in our faith by words of encouragement through the scriptures. Like if someone is dying I might pray for them and remind them to die is gain. And that we come to mount Zion the city of God. And that Jesus went to prepare a place for them. 

                        I guess that's it for me brethren. 

   

[NotAllThere]

Calvinists, in my experience, like to say that you're either one or the other, but I think this is a false dichotomy, since both Arminianism and Calvinism are man inspired interpretations of scripture. I don't think I've ever met anyone who says they're Arminianist.

All scripture is God-breathed. Calvin's Reformed Dogmatics were not. No matter how helpful or "true" you might find them.  

Edited August 8, 2020 by NotAllThere

[Gideon]

8 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

When Paul wrote the words examine yourself wither you be in the faith. We should remember in what context he was writing this. He was writing to the Corinthians that had ongoing sin problems and divisions and were walking according to the flesh. We are not commanded to examine ourselfs on a on going basis as if there could be at anytime doubt that we are saved.

                      Only if there is a practice of sin in a believer life should this be applied to one self. We are to have full assurance of our salvation. The bible is plain about the fact we are sealed by the holy spirit. Growing in christ is a long process that is complicated.  You may not notice the growth for one. And a lot of times its through our suffering and various trials that we grow in christ and become more like him. 

                   Also the word of God the scriptures or the letters of the Apostles are our food to grow in the faith. The more we study and walk by the instructions of the Apostles we will grow. And it's the holy spirit that makes the scriptures come alive to us and brings understanding to our minds.

            If a believer is not growing it's most likly they are not devoted to the scriptures and lack prayer he loved and are busy in other things. Let's not judge weither one is saved or not but uplift our brethren in the faith.

                     To abide in christ means to abide in his love. What is christ love ? He gave up himself for us and become sin and died on the cross. We likewise will love our brother like he loved us. If we are doing this then we will bear fruit.

                  All born again believers are in christ. Some bear fruit more then others. But we are justified by the blood of christ and not our works. We are saved for good works which happens when we become born again. I dont judge any believer weither they are truly saved. The bible does not tell me to do this. 

                I look at all believers as my brother or sister. I trust Jesus as the shepherd to take care of his sheep . He says feed my sheep. He wants us to encourage each other in our faith by words of encouragement through the scriptures. Like if someone is dying I might pray for them and remind them to die is gain. And that we come to mount Zion the city of God. And that Jesus went to prepare a place for them. 

                        I guess that's it for me brethren. 

   

                    To abide in christ means to abide in his love. What is christ love ? He gave up himself for us and become sin and died on the cross. We likewise will love our brother like he loved us. If we are doing this then we will bear fruit

And this brings us back to the very premise of my post. so, are we? Are we loving our brother like He loved us?  

In the book of Acts, men would exclaim "Behold how they love one another!"  Do we see that happening in our lives? in the church we fellowship at? Is this the opinion of those in the world that we know as to how we are children of God interact with one another?  

I think we all know the answer to that, even if it is hard to admit it. Should this not be a giant red flag to us, seeing that we are told that it is by our love one for another that all men shall know that we are His disciples? It should, but it is not.

Instead, we say "Well, that is what grace is for, because we are only human and no one is perfect." God is not through with us yet. He will have a church ready for the wedding. God has spoken through Ezekiel His plan for how evangelization should work. 

"...and the heathen will know that I am the Lord, whe I shall be sanctified IN YOU before their very eyes."

Ezekiel 36

When it finally bothers us that no one comes up to us asking why we are different, we are on the path to restoration in the body of Christ. His promises are meant to work. The fact that by and large, they are not is testifying to the fact that we are missing a key element in seeing our sanctification process actually work. 

But how many there are, possessing grace for forgiveness, who declare they have need of nothing. Real grace then teaches us the HOW of denying ungodliness and worldly lusts so thst we can live soberly, righteously and justly in this present world. If that is not the mark we see on our lives, is it not time we examine ourselves to see what we are  missing  in our understanding of how to walk as overcomers? 

blessings,

Gids

[leah777]

11 hours ago, Gideon said:

May I ask you, Leah. Were the Laodecians overcomers? Were the Laodecians the true church? God counseled them and addressed them as His body and yet urged them as to their need to repent and to overcome. If this be the case, then what many are believing, that we are overcomers even if we are overcome by sin is a false  understanding of the truth. 

Was Paul walking in victory as an  overcomer in Romans 7? No. He was imprisoned by sin and self. He did not pat himself on the back, telling himself he was an overcomer, He cried out to God to deliver him from his body of death....his old nature. And God did! 

blessings to you, Leah,

Gideon

I am not clever, like some, but I know there is something fundamentally wrong with your reasoning and focus on berating people, and then calling opposition to your words bad things.

[Gideon]

8 minutes ago, leah777 said:

I am not clever, like some, but I know there is something fundamentally wrong with your reasoning and focus on berating people, and then calling opposition to your words bad things.

Your ears translate my words into something berating, when that is simply the furthest thing from the truth. 

I have simply taken wheat you say and asked you a question concerning it. There is no cleverness, nor trick hidden in it. We see the way God interacted with His children in Laodecia. He did not see them as overcomers. He saw them as overcome with complacency and acceptance of a life less than what He desired for them. He then counseled them to overcome, just as He did all the other churches addressed in Revelation 2 and 3. 

I bring these things up not to wound, but so that His children can find the full blessing of what Jesus died to give us. Unfortunately, in order to receive it, we must admit we need such a walk, which some take as an accusation.  That is why some take offense and see malice in my words, when there simply is none. 

blessings, 

Gideon

Edited August 8, 2020 by Gideon

[Alive]

17 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The opening statements of this op report a belief the whole topic of Calvinism vs Arminianism is a smokescreen of the enemy, those who engage in that topic do so to convince themselves of their salvation and are deceived. Whether any offense was intended or not and whether any offense is taken or not that's a pretty crappy thing to say about those in the body of Christ. It is also unnecessary because the op could have been posted AND discussed without ever mentioning Calvinism or Arminianism. Furthermore, when it comes to diligence, fruit-bearing, and examination, three of the concerns stipulated in the op both Calvin AND Arminius and their respective soteriologies are in fairly uniform agreement, so the sentences aren't just mean and unnecessary; they are factually and rationally incorrect. 

I recommend either deleting the two sentences in question or rewording them to better reflect the kindness you believe you possess, better reflect the agreement Calvinism and Arminianism have with the rest of the op, and simply to be more accurate factually. 

 

 

.

LOL

OK--ya made your point repeatedly. Enough already. This thread is getting a ton of reports and it is a burden to the ministry to manage.

C'MON, MAN.