Are there any verses that DONT FIT in the 2nd Advent

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, theElect777 said:

Clearly is talking about AFTER the Tribulation but you will see it how you want to believe it.

No, you are still mistaken. I know where "the tribulation" is in Revelation. Perhaps you still don't know. First off, what most people call "the trib" or tribulation should be called the 70th week. God made this very easy for us: the 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 70th week starts with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial, with the 7th trumpet marking the midpoint. 

I could say it another way: the 70th week begins in chapter 8 and goes to chapter 16. 
God's wrath begins before chapter 8 and goes to chapter 16. 

Learn where "the trib" is in Revelation. 

[Guest theElect777]

I will reread it all and see if I change my view 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are still wrong! It began with Paul. I suggest you take it up with him when you arrive. 

It's funny, ya know? Pretrib has no timing involved proving; When? And it can't. How convenient. No prophesied events can happen before the secret coming of Jesus and the secret rapture. How do you know it didn't already occur? What's to say some prophesied event must happen directly after? 

And what are we watching for?

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on your guard and stay alert! For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

It is like a man going on a journey who left his house, put each servant in charge of his own task, and instructed the doorkeeper to keep watch. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know when the master of the house will return—whether in the evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or in the morning. Otherwise, he may arrive without notice and find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!”

I kinda like your take; the 1st seal opened long ago. At least some prophesied events occurred by your interpretation. Even then with events spread out over two millennia we really have nothing to watch for do we? Two thousand years of the gospel, war, famine, death and martyrs all totally commonplace for centuries means it's normalized. I guess your rapture can still come like a thief in darkness then, just like pretrib so desires. But it's not a surprise if we watch is it?

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on your guard and stay alert! For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

It is like a man going on a journey who left his house, put each servant in charge of his own task, and instructed the doorkeeper to keep watch. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know when the master of the house will return—whether in the evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or in the morning. Otherwise, he may arrive without notice and find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!""

Why would be be told to watch and stay alert for the Master's return if there was nothing for which to watch? 

 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, you are still mistaken. I know where "the tribulation" is in Revelation. Perhaps you still don't know. First off, what most people call "the trib" or tribulation should be called the 70th week. God made this very easy for us: the 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 70th week starts with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial, with the 7th trumpet marking the midpoint. 

I could say it another way: the 70th week begins in chapter 8 and goes to chapter 16. 
God's wrath begins before chapter 8 and goes to chapter 16. 

Learn where "the trib" is in Revelation. 

The 70th week begins with the 7th seal? One of the most unmistakable chronologies in Revelation is Chapters 6-7. The seals are opened in order. In Rev 6:12-17 we see John say, "And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal," we see what follows and it's the impending wrath of God and the Lamb. What you're saying is the week starts after God's wrath begins. You don't find that out of order? I do.

At the beginning of Chapter 7 John says, "After this I saw..." Clear chronology that after the signs of Jesus coming and the impending wrath John sees what follows and it's recorded in Rev 7:1-8.

The chronology continues in Rev 7:9, "After this I looked and saw..." So at least from Rev 6:12-17 to Rev 7:9 there is a pretty strict chronology. What does John see in Rev 7:9-14? A great group that came out of GT; the same one you say is a pretrib group in another reply is in fact believers that came out from within great tribulation, which great tribulation is over by the time the 7th seal is opened. 

You're saying the 70th week only starts after the GT. How is that possible when pretribs whole idea is the 70th week is GT? 

 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How IS God to deal with those who are not ready When Jesus comes FOR his saints? What else can God do?  He WILL NOT force people to come: He can only ask. 

Once again that is not the point. I'm not concerned with God's ways with anyone, that's the realm of the Spirit.

Pretrib escapes wrath based on, "For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Pretrib says the entire 70th week is wrath therefore it must be a pretrib rapture. Are we good so far?

Scripture says, "“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;" 

And this is the, "multitude too large to count" who have, "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb". These are believers in Jesus Christ.

But they have come out of GT which you say is God's wrath. Which you say believers do not suffer.

By your take some believers do suffer wrath.

But not you.

You escape wrath.

Other of your brothers and sisters don't escape wrath.

That's just for you to avoid God's wrath. 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHO will be "left behind?" Will it be GOD'S fault that people were not ready? "Believer" will not be left behind (unless God really will come only for those expecting His coming). the "left behind" will be NON-Believers. 

Then who are the great multitude that washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and that come out of GT? The same GT which pretrib says is the wrath of God, which Paul says no believers are so appointed. It's fine that this group goes through wrath as long as it's not you and your white, western, elite, dispensational, mega church, morally perfect ilk. 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems the choice will be to be "caught up" or "overtaken" (as a thief might overtake). Is this something that people can CHOOSE? Of course it is: we CHOOSE to be born again and to be "In Christ" so we can escape what is coming.  Many saints may well be fast asleep the Moment the trumpet sounds, but the Holy Spirit will awaken them as they are being caught up. 

 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Prove it.  One moment it is church age, the next moment it will be the Day of the Lord. (refer to 1 thes. 4 & 5) I didn't write it, Paul did. 

That's not proof of dispensationalism.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

True. But that does not prove pretrib.   I will admit: one MUST learn where "the trib" is to know pre, mid, or post.  If one is mistaken on where "the trib" starts, how then can they be sure of pre - mid - or post? 

Conflating unlike terms proves only a lack of diligence. Pretrib thinks 70th equals wrath equals tribulation equals great tribulation. According to Rev 7, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" Great tribulation is over before the 7th seal opens.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You shoulder the burden of proof  Why is the "burden of proof" on me? I did not write it; John did. He is the one that saw (and then wrote) of Jesus ascending back into heaven and sending the Holy Spirit down - establishing the context of WHEN Jesus got the book and began opening the seals.  Just so you can know: that was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended and got the book into His own hands and began opening seals. 

Generally the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. It's fallacious to say, "I said it now prove me wrong." A conclusion is based on fact which follow a thesis. You have the thesis and the conclusion but I don't see fact supporting the conclusion. 

Your assertion that Jesus was somehow absent is based on hope and not fact. Absence of fact is not proof of anything. You think it is but you're wrong. You don't know Jesus is not in the throne room. Your conclusion based on the 'search' is a flight of fancy and not hard evidence.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHEN then did Jesus send out the church? Again, around 32 AD.

 HOW LONG did it take Satan to try and stop the early church from advancing the gospel? Read the book of Acts: it was not long.  One way Satan began trying to stop the gospel was my murdering Stephen, and sending Paul to murder others. 

You can try and push seal 5 off into our future, but it will not be the intent of the Author.  John is very much in early church age. If you insist otherwise, then the burden of proof is on you to prove it. 

I am taking the book exactly as written: the burden of proof that it must say something different then is on everyone else. 

 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It's not When, its how. Adding When to this is unjustified and incorrect.   How interesting. 

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"  Is this asking HOW or is it asking a question about TIME? 

Stunning. This has nothing to do with the previous conclusion. What you posted is the question about how long before they are avenged. Get that?

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Totally different than the idea of manner of death which is here, "...their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed."

They have to wait for a time until the number is reached, "rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed", and that number is going to be reached by the condition of, "just as they had been killed."

This isn't speaking to general death of the brothers, it's speaking to manner. Scripture says, "were killed, just as they had been killed." Meaning the number of deaths under the same circumstances has to be reached.

Hos autos means 'as them'. This doesn't speak to the brotherhood as that was already spoken to twice just before. Hos autos modifies 'were killed'. It's more wordy but literally it's "killed according to how they were killed".

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHO will be "left behind?" Will it be GOD'S fault that people were not ready? "Believer" will not be left behind (unless God really will come only for those expecting His coming). the "left behind" will be NON-Believers.

Do you have a scripture to support that?  This is what I read:

• And with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

That is a description of what happens to NON-Believers.  NON-Believers will be under a deluding influence in order to be judged.  There will be no great revival.  That is contrary to what scripture teaches.  So then where do the great multitude of believers come from who come out of the great tribulation?  The only plausible answer is that they were believers going into the great tribulation.  There is no pretrib rapture of believers.

• Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.  2 Peter 2:9

The NON-Believers are not all of a sudden going to repent and attain a martyr's faith.  Scripture proves the "great revival" myth to be false.  So, the question remains, where do the saints who come out of the great tribulation come from if the saints are removed before the great tribulation begins?  According to scripture, all of the NON-Believers are under a strong delusion and punishment until the day of judgment.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Once again that is not the point. I'm not concerned with God's ways with anyone, that's the realm of the Spirit.

Pretrib escapes wrath based on, "For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Pretrib says the entire 70th week is wrath therefore it must be a pretrib rapture. Are we good so far?

Scripture says, "“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;" 

And this is the, "multitude too large to count" who have, "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb". These are believers in Jesus Christ.

But they have come out of GT which you say is God's wrath. Which you say believers do not suffer.

By your take some believers do suffer wrath.

But not you.

You escape wrath.

Other of your brothers and sisters don't escape wrath.

That's just for you to avoid God's wrath. 

Then who are the great multitude that washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and that come out of GT? The same GT which pretrib says is the wrath of God, which Paul says no believers are so appointed. It's fine that this group goes through wrath as long as it's not you and your white, western, elite, dispensational, mega church, morally perfect ilk. 

 

That's not proof of dispensationalism.

Conflating unlike terms proves only a lack of diligence. Pretrib thinks 70th equals wrath equals tribulation equals great tribulation. According to Rev 7, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" Great tribulation is over before the 7th seal opens.

Generally the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. It's fallacious to say, "I said it now prove me wrong." A conclusion is based on fact which follow a thesis. You have the thesis and the conclusion but I don't see fact supporting the conclusion. 

Your assertion that Jesus was somehow absent is based on hope and not fact. Absence of fact is not proof of anything. You think it is but you're wrong. You don't know Jesus is not in the throne room. Your conclusion based on the 'search' is a flight of fancy and not hard evidence.

 

Stunning. This has nothing to do with the previous conclusion. What you posted is the question about how long before they are avenged. Get that?

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Totally different than the idea of manner of death which is here, "...their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed."

They have to wait for a time until the number is reached, "rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed", and that number is going to be reached by the condition of, "just as they had been killed."

This isn't speaking to general death of the brothers, it's speaking to manner. Scripture says, "were killed, just as they had been killed." Meaning the number of deaths under the same circumstances has to be reached.

Hos autos means 'as them'. This doesn't speak to the brotherhood as that was already spoken to twice just before. Hos autos modifies 'were killed'. It's more wordy but literally it's "killed according to how they were killed".

Pretrib escapes wrath based on, "For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Did you notice? Pretrib did not write this scripture. This was God's doing. 

Pretrib says the entire 70th week is wrath therefore it must be a pretrib rapture. Are we good so far? Again, Pretrib did not assign wrath to the 70th week: the word of God does that. It was God directing Paul to write that the rapture comes before wrath and the Day of wrath (The day of the Lord.)

they have come out of GT which you say is God's wrath. Which you say believers do not suffer.  Pretrib did not write that scripture. Pretrib in general imagines the rapture in Rev. 4:1. They miss it by a mile. I know that in Rev. 7 God has not yet even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the second half of the week where the days of GT Jesus spoke of begin and take place. Therefore I KNOW these did not come from "those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of. Where they DID come from is from the daily tribulations of the church age: an age that will go, it seems, for 2000 years. I have no problem then if God chooses to call the church age "great" tribulation. These came out of the tribulation of the church age ONE BY ONE as each one got born again and entered eternal life. Just so you know, I don't say that the church age is God's wrath. This great crowd does not come out of God's wrath. God never said they did. 

The truth then is this: John used those two words together TWICE: "great" and "tribulation" and neither time was he referring to the days of GT that JEsus spoke of. If he had, those days Jesus spoke of: Jesus said they would start AFTER the abomination. And John shows us that in Revelation they would start after the warning given by God in chapter 14 not to take the mark. But John did not use that phrase, GT in reference to the days Jesus spoke of. 

 

By your take some believers do suffer wrath.  But not you. You escape wrath. Other of your brothers and sisters don't escape wrath. That's just for you to avoid God's wrath.  Let's get this straight: at the time of the rapture ALL "brothers and sisters" escape wrath: that is, at least all who WANT to escape wrath. (It seems I meet people on this thread that believe they must go through wrath. I believe God will give them what they want.) Take it from Paul: all those "in Christ" are caught up. In other words, NO "BROTHER," or no "SISTER" is left behind (Unless they WANT to be.)

Therefore your argument is defeated almost before it was stated. There will be MANY who will turn to Jesus AFTER the rapture - starting with the 144,000. But millions of Gentiles will follow. And yes, they will be in God's wrath. Why? Simply because they were NOT "brothers and sisters" when the rapture took place. They were not born again. I suspect you know many reasons WHY people put off a decision for God. Other's are lost in false doctrine; perhaps their church never explained to them that they MUST be "born again." Perhaps then they think they are OK and ready for His coming. I suspect there are MILLIONS of people in dead churches that are not born again. They have only a form of religion. 

You seem to blame God for their problem. I submit: it is NOT GOD'S FAULT that they are not born again. He is doing everything He can to get as many people born again as possible before the end of the age.  I submit that God will wait as long as He possibly can because He does not want any to perish. But it seems that at the time of the rapture, many who call themselves "Christian" will be left behind. 

So WHO it is that will avoid God's wrath? All whom the church will call in before Christ comes. Plain and simple. It is OUR job (The church) to call in the lost. 

Then who are the great multitude that washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and that come out of GT?  You STILL don't know who this group is - yet I have said it over and over: IT IS THE RAPTURED CHURCH. But they did not come out of wrath: they came of of the daily tribulation of the church age. They came out one by one or continually one after another (To satisfy the Greek verb tense). Note carefully: John has not yet event started the week, MUCH LESS arrived at a point after the abomination - and they are already in heaven. God had not yet started the Day of His wrath when they were caught up. They DID NOT come out of wrath. That may be your theory; but it is not God's theory. What they DID come out of is the church age. They came continually, day after day, day after day, as people heard the Good News and were born again. Note again: many translations use the English word "coming:" "These are the ones COMING out...." (It is a Greek present participle tense showing a continuing action.) In other words, John is NOT hearing How this great crowd suddenly were transported from earth to heaven. He is hearing how they got into this group. It was a continual coming, as each heard the gospel and responded. In that instant, each passed from death to life. 

as long as it's not you and your white, western, elite, dispensational, mega church, morally perfect ilk.   It is an open door: yes,, even YOU can enter of you choose. Or, if you choose to remain behind, and face wrath, I think God will give people what they WANT. (Why would ANYONE argue against escaping wrath?) Untold Millions of Asians, Africans, Indians, and from ALL ethnic groups are invited and indeed are coming.  It is not just for a certain group. Such a theory is silly. 

Pretrib thinks 70th equals wrath equals tribulation equals great tribulation.   No, that is YOUR thinking, not God's thinking.  Neither is it scripture.

According to Rev 7, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" Great tribulation is over before the 7th seal opens.  Now you are showing us your great lack of understanding of John's chronology. The truth is, John had not yet even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the abomination. Again, this is the raptured church and they got into this group by coming continually, one after another into eternal life, out of the daily tribulation of the church age. But since the church is is so long, God choose to call it mega. Why is it when God calls it GT, you think wrath? I don't think wrath, for I know they did not come out of wrath. Only you imagine that.  Just so you know, this group was raptured JUST BEFORE the day of wrath started (at the 6th seal.) Then God will start the WEEK at the 7th seal, and the first half will continue on to the 7th trumpet that marks the abomination. The days of GT Jesus spoke of cannot possibly start until AFTER the 7th trumpet sounds (after the abomination). I suggest you learn John's chronology. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Your assertion that Jesus was somehow absent is based on hope and not fact. Absence of fact is not proof of anything. You think it is but you're wrong. You don't know Jesus is not in the throne room. Your conclusion based on the 'search' is a flight of fancy and not hard evidence.

 

Stunning. This has nothing to do with the previous conclusion. What you posted is the question about how long before they are avenged. Get that?

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Totally different than the idea of manner of death which is here, "...their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed."

They have to wait for a time until the number is reached, "rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed", and that number is going to be reached by the condition of, "just as they had been killed."

This isn't speaking to general death of the brothers, it's speaking to manner. Scripture says, "were killed, just as they had been killed." Meaning the number of deaths under the same circumstances has to be reached.

Hos autos means 'as them'. This doesn't speak to the brotherhood as that was already spoken to twice just before. Hos autos modifies 'were killed'. It's more wordy but literally it's "killed according to how they were killed".

 

 

 

Your assertion that Jesus was somehow absent is based on hope and not fact. If you don't believe it, then show us the verse where JOhn SAW Him at the right hand of the FAther. That is so simple! But just to set the record straight, I was not smart enough to notice: it was Jesus Christ, the head of the church, that pointed this out to me. It was Jesus that told me there are over a dozen verses telling us that He, Jesus, SHOULD HAVE BEEN at the right hand of the Father. It was He, Jesus, that said to me that Stephen SAW Him there at the right hand of the Father. Therefore, you can argue 'till the cows come home that He was there but just not seen. The Head of the church will disagree with you. 

Do you not understand that it was Jesus, the head of the church, SHOWING this vision to John? He showed John EXACTLY what He wanted John to see. In other words, Jesus Christ, the Head of the church, SHOWED JOHN a throne room with the Father on the throne but the SON NOT SEEN. Instead of arguing about it, you should be asking HIM WHY. 

Meaning the number of deaths under the same circumstances has to be reached.  EXACTLY! Good job. But WHAT CIRCUMSTANCE? I submit the circumstance is killed as CHURCH AGE saints. That is the circumstance: They are not 70th week martyrs for the 70th week has not started yet.  My point is, John was not meaning HOW each one was killed, and for example, being beheaded. They were all killed because they loved Jesus. That is the circumstance. And it happened during the church age. I guess you know, most people believe these are 70th week martyrs - because they imagine (incorrectly) that the first seal is the Antichrist. While John is in the early church age, they are in the 70th week already! 

If these were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW that judgment had already started: and by the end of 7 years would be finished. But these martyrs had no idea how long it would be. 

"killed according to how they were killed".  Yes: HOW were they killed? They were ALL killed as church age martyrs.  Do you see them as 70th week martyrs?

[iamlamad]

39 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Do you have a scripture to support that?  This is what I read:

• And with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

That is a description of what happens to NON-Believers.  NON-Believers will be under a deluding influence in order to be judged.  There will be no great revival.  That is contrary to what scripture teaches.  So then where do the great multitude of believers come from who come out of the great tribulation?  The only plausible answer is that they were believers going into the great tribulation.  There is no pretrib rapture of believers.

• Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.  2 Peter 2:9

The NON-Believers are not all of a sudden going to repent and attain a martyr's faith.  Scripture proves the "great revival" myth to be false.  So, the question remains, where do the saints who come out of the great tribulation come from if the saints are removed before the great tribulation begins?  According to scripture, all of the NON-Believers are under a strong delusion and punishment until the day of judgment.

There are today millions of people attending "dead" churches  - but they don't KNOW their churches are dead. They call themselves "Christian" in they ARE: but they have never been born again. Their church does not teach them that they must be born again. they have a form of religion they call CHristian. Indeed, I believe most of them love Jesus as much as we do. Do THESE fit the description you gave above? NO! Therefore I disagree with your theory: all nonbelievers do not fit in one category. 

[DeighAnn]

26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Pretrib escapes wrath based on, "For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Did you notice? Pretrib did not write this scripture. This was God's doing.

Who does Gods Wrath fall on?

  THEM. 


 How do you escape being one of THEM? 

You go from being a gentile to a CHRISTIAN. 


Then NO LONGER BEING ONE OF THEM YOU ARE NOT APPOINTED TO SUFFER WRATH.  

SIMPLICITY IN JESUS