Do Seals and Trumpets Work Together?

[RonaldBruno]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not exactly. "And I saw..." does not tell us one follows from the other. That's a post hoc fallacy i.e., after this, therefore resulting from it: used to indicate that a causal relationship has erroneously been assumed from a merely sequential one." From this we don't even have an order of events that demands the trumps follow the seals.

We can't rely on chapter and verse either as those divisions are merely for reference and do not appear in the source text.

If John had recorded 'Then...' in 8:2 as he did in 8:3 and in every instance where the order of the sounding of the trumpets is described in the 8th chapter, then yes the trumps would follow the 7th seal. That isn't the case. The trumps are sounded in order, they begin to sound at a time we have to determine from other evidence.

Right. The silence may suggest a separation between the opening of the scroll and the enactment of it, a long period of time _ on earth of course. It seems plausible to me that when Jesus arrived in Heaven, He was given the scroll and He opened it then. It is a prophetic scroll about a future time. So the actions/events written about in the scroll  don't  kick off until the trumpets start to blow.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Yes, that's how I read it as well. It's a time period that begins and ends with an unspecified duration. 

But it does begin at some moment in time where the condition of wrath did not exist one moment, then does exist and runs the course, however long that may be.

Could the duration of that period of time be determined by the seven plagues? 

Does "the time of Their wrath" have to contain wrath from stem to stern?  Or is it a period of time that culminates in wrath?

God becomes angry at people when they disregard His judgments continue in disobedience.  Aren't the seven plagues judgments that result in bringing about His wrath on the unrepentant?

[DeighAnn]

29 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The Sixth Seal: Terror

 I am wondering if you found something different than this and if so, let me know.   

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?  

Greek 
because has come (2064) the day great of the wrath of Them and who is able to stand?

2064  erchomai  to come, go
 

OF TIME 
like the Latin venio with nouns of time

as ἔρχονται ἡμέραι   in a future sense, will come  Luke 23:29 Hebrews 8:8  (Jeremiah 31:31)  ἐλεύσονται ἡμέραι  Matthew 9:15  Mark 2:20  Luke 5:35  Luke 17:22  Luke 21:6  λθεν ἡ ἡμέρα  Luke 22:7  Revelation 6:17



Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Luke 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:  from(Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah)

Matthew 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Mark 2:20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.



ἔρχεται ὥρα, ὅτε John 4:21, 23   John 5:25   John 16:25   followed by ἵνα  John 16:2, 32 
John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. 23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

ἦλθεν is come i. e. is present   John 16:4, 21   Revelation 14:7, 15
ἐλήλυθε ἡ ὥρα, ἵνα  John 12:23   John 13:1 
ἐληλύθει ἡ ὥρα αὐτοῦ  had come Latin aderat John 7:30  John 8:20 
ἔρχεται νύξ  John 9:4
ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου 1 Thessalonians 5:2
καιροί Acts 3:19  with names of events that occur at a definite time 
ὁ θερισμός  John 4:35
ὁ γάμος τοῦ ἀρνίου  Revelation 19:7 
ἦλθεν ἡ κρίσις  Revelation 18:1 in imitation of the Hebrew הַבָּא, ὁ, ἡ, τό ἐρχόμενος, ἐρχομένη, ἐρχόμενον is equivalent to -  to come, future 
ὁ αἰών  Mark 10:30  Luke 18:30
ἡ ἑορτή Acts 18:21 (Rec.) 
ἡ ὀργή 1 Thessalonians 1:10 

[Uriah]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, that's how I read it as well. It's a time period that begins and ends with an unspecified duration. 

But it does begin at some moment in time where the condition of wrath did not exist one moment, then does exist and runs the course, however long that may be.

Speaking of the sixth seal, my belief has been that the sky departs and Jesus' face is apparent to all is something that takes place at the very end, after there has been plenty of wrath.

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Could the duration of that period of time be determined by the seven plagues? 

Does "the time of Their wrath" have to contain wrath from stem to stern?  Or is it a period of time that culminates in wrath?

God becomes angry at people when they disregard His judgments continue in disobedience.  Aren't the seven plagues judgments that result in bringing about His wrath on the unrepentant?

I guess I hold to some strict definitions of the end of the age and that's based on what I have read about God's approach to his people throughout the OT and NT.

It seems there is always a period of time when the people are called to repentance. Prophets come and speak to this. Then God will execute the warnings given by the prophets to His people. This is some form of pressure to get them to repent cause we all know mankind never turns to God and Christ until it's becoming difficult. That being said it looks to me like there is a great amount of pressure put on God's people at the end before wrath falls.

I would define the trumps as that pressure that comes from the Most High to change the heart of His people back toward Him in true spiritual worship from the heart. Then of course that won't be enough pressure to get the hard cases to makes the choice to follow the Lord Most High, and then we have GT. Now the choice must be made and that is what the trial of the mark is for; to further search the heart and mind and leave no doubt as to whom we will follow. Then the finality of wrath falls on the rest who have not repented and made the choice to follow Satan.

Of course this is a unique time as the government of man is over and God's Christ will now rule the earth. Before, the government of mankind was allowed to continue so the parallels of God's approach to the people of earth is not quite the same as in millennia past. I think that wrath here is also misunderstood a bit. It's not so much the death of the rebels, which is bad enough, but the eternal condition of death and torment that awaits those who choose poorly. That's the real wrath of the moment.

So as the week unfolds it's pressure on the people of God first to move them to repent and come with glad and open heart to the Savior. The pressure ramps up to the test of the mark and once the condition are met then the Lord will make His appearance. So I see a separation in the pressure, what you call the plagues, of the Trumps and the fierce anger of the Bowls poured out on Satan and his followers. It seems that a number of those who hold to the testimony of Christ and refused to follow the beast must be reached before God avenges the same. That's what would determine the length of the trumps and the test of the mark. 

If I understand you I would then answer:

1) No

2) Yes

3) Yes

4) No

 

 

 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 I am wondering if you found something different than this and if so, let me know.   

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?  

Greek 
because has come (2064) the day great of the wrath of Them and who is able to stand?

2064  erchomai  to come, go
 

OF TIME 
like the Latin venio with nouns of time

as ἔρχονται ἡμέραι   in a future sense, will come  Luke 23:29 Hebrews 8:8  (Jeremiah 31:31)  ἐλεύσονται ἡμέραι  Matthew 9:15  Mark 2:20  Luke 5:35  Luke 17:22  Luke 21:6  λθεν ἡ ἡμέρα  Luke 22:7  Revelation 6:17

As you didn't leave a conclusion to your thoughts I'm going to make an assumption about your point. Let me know if I'm wrong.

It seem you are pointing to the idea of wrath yet to come as if to say wrath does not begin at the sixth seal. I agree. Wrath begins at the 7th trump and wrath is imminent at the 6th seal.

The context is clear;

"And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

These signs immediately precede:

Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.

The people of earth are not calling on the mountains to bury them for no reason. They just saw the sign of the coming of the Son of Man as told in Matt 24:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

They know wrath is about to begin. It's not just a single day. Wrath will begin with punishment to repentance and when that fails the rebels will meet the ultimate wrath in the lake of fire which burns forever. That's what is meant by the following. 

For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”"

The people of earth have just seen the signs of Jesus' coming and they know wrath is here. Not that it begins at that moment or that all the wrath is poured out at this time, but that it will commence from this point.

In that context G2064 is best understood as:

I. to come;

1. properly,

a. of persons; α. universally, to come from one place into another, and used both of persons arriving  and of those returning, 

Here Jesus is doing both. He has arrived and returned. The context of the signs and the terror of the people of earth do not suggest it's future, Jesus has arrived.

The condition of fierce anger will now exist and it begins from the moment "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory" or shortly thereafter, and then continue till the predetermined end.

 

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

Right. The silence may suggest a separation between the opening of the scroll and the enactment of it, a long period of time _ on earth of course. It seems plausible to me that when Jesus arrived in Heaven, He was given the scroll and He opened it then. It is a prophetic scroll about a future time. So the actions/events written about in the scroll  don't  kick off until the trumpets start to blow.

It could be but I haven't looked into it. I know that when I see 'times, time and half a time' in relation to eschatology it's 'a season' and I don't define it as some do as 3.5 years. The half hour of silence has intrigued me but I haven't sussed it out. 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Speaking of the sixth seal, my belief has been that the sky departs and Jesus' face is apparent to all is something that takes place at the very end, after there has been plenty of wrath.

I see everything before the declaration of wrath in 6:17 and 11:18 as mounting pressure on the people of God. A pleading with God's own to repent and avoid the eternal finality of wrath in the lake of fire.

Wrath in the vials is coming on the rebels who attack God and Jesus by storming Jerusalem and trying to in effect kill God and take His place. 

I see this wrath at the very end and a short duration. But I've been wrong before.

[Uriah]

44 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I see everything before the declaration of wrath in 6:17 and 11:18 as mounting pressure on the people of God. A pleading with God's own to repent and avoid the eternal finality of wrath in the lake of fire.

Wrath in the vials is coming on the rebels who attack God and Jesus by storming Jerusalem and trying to in effect kill God and take His place. 

I see this wrath at the very end and a short duration. But I've been wrong before.

As you pointed out, the seals and trumpets work together. The 7th trumpet reveals the dead being judged and saints being rewarded. This is at the end. For this reason I said there has been ongoing wrath until the point when the trumpets are all sounded.

[RonaldBruno]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It could be but I haven't looked into it. I know that when I see 'times, time and half a time' in relation to eschatology it's 'a season' and I don't define it as some do as 3.5 years. The half hour of silence has intrigued me but I haven't sussed it out. 

In Rev. 13  we see 42 months

Rev. 11, 1260 days

Then 1290  and 1335 days on Dan. 12

= 3 1/2 years