ORDER OF EVENTS

[Uriah]

Has anyone considered that the term "sons of God" is used elsewhere in scripture, including the N.T.?

This whole controversy, to me, is yet another mis-read. The sons of God is probably meant to be "men of renown" who were at on time respected but began to collect multiple "wives" and engaged in building a stock of descendants for a form of clan-ism to rule over others. Thus they "fell" from the grace they once enjoyed and had to resort to the common corruption we still see in the despotism today.  

[Justin Adams]

Read the Hebrew and study well. The answers are all there.

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Read the Hebrew and study well. The answers are all there.

Better yet, I read what JESUS says, His answer is FINAL!

[Sister]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Besides the angels discussed,
angels are visible today, and Abraham saw them.  They saw them in Sodom to.  Maybe even you

Hebrews 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.
Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

 

Hi DeighAnn

Yes, angels can materialise if God sends them on an errand.  I agree. 

 

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I did not know that Christ was called the prince of this world.  I will go check it out so get back to that point later.  thank you for the info. 

No, Christ was not called the prince of this world.  Satan was.  Christ is the Prince of the kingdom of God, and the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords.  The kingdom of God is not of this world, which was what I was trying to show.

 

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Back to the subject.
When do you see this as taking place?  2000 yrs ago?  These are what give me, problems

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

It took place when Christ ascended to the Father.  You missed out quoting this very important verse which is the key.

 Revelation 12:5   And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Christ was caught up to God when he rose from the dead - that day.  Just after Mary saw him, and he said;

  John 20:17   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After Mary left, Jesus ascended to the Father and was caught up to God.  He returned later in the evening to meet with the apostles.  It was during those hours they didn't see Christ that this war in heaven took place.

As a side note, ...now isn't that strange?  Christ being brought back from the dead saw Mary before he saw the Father.  There had to be a witness on earth to testify first, that Christ was truly alive again, but more importantly, this was all spoken so that we could know that until he met up with the apostles later that evening, he was in heaven with the Father for the whole day before he returned and showed himself.

What happened during those hours when Jesus was in heaven?  Something big.

 

  Revelation 12:6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

So a little verse here, put to distract from verse 5, but true.  That woman is not Mary.  It is Zion.  Zion is the kingdom of God on earth, which Jesus established, so that anyone can come to the Father but through him now.  The woman is not Israel either.  Israel did not flee to the wilderness (the world), to go into hiding,  but went after the kingdom of God to persecute it, with the Romans.  Israel did not want Jesus' teachings of the Kingdom of God to survive, but to have it eradicated from the earth.  God preserved his woman (his kingdom on earth), through the apostles, who kept her teachings alive so she didn't die so to speak.  They went underground, and the gospels were written, with all their testimonies and the epistles sent to the churches, with all the instructions to establish, preach and spread.  Satan could not stop this truth and new teaching from getting out, for God was protecting his truth, (his woman) from being destroyed.  3 1/2 years it took to establish.

So the woman had just fled into the wilderness straight away after Jesus ascended - where she was to be protected for 3 1/2 years.   That same day she fled, was the same day Christ rose and ascended.

And on that day, when he was missing for all those hours; this is what took place;

Revelation 12:7   And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8   And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

 Revelation 12:9   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

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Has there been no accuser day and night before God for the past 2000 yrs?

Yes, but not in heaven.  He accuses from his low estate now and from the earth.

 

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Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

Was Satan not full of wrath when Jesus rose from the dead?  Did he not straight away send a flood (war) after the apostles and anyone who preached the teachings of Christ?  Is he happy that men can now have all their sins forgiven, and have Jesus to call upon to deliver us from his hand?

The apostles overcame him, and many others after them - it still continues to the end, not just at the end of this age, but since the apostles.

Yes Satan knows he has a short time.  A short time is anything less than everlasting.

 

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Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Do you see a problem with the timing WE ARE GIVEN?   BEFORE AND DURING AND AFTER?  

is a "short time" 1000s of years long?

 

Where does it say 1000 years? 

I think I've already addressed all this.

[Sister]

19 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

'Let us make man in our IMAGE.' So HE made them in His image also. The holy ones of God are created with many ONTOLOGICAL aspects of the Lord High God. He calls them 'sons'. They also have freedom of choice as seen in Gen 3 and 6.

As sons of God, the redeemed of the Lord will replace His errant sons in the end and reign with all His children in the end. The word 'saint' is a poor translation - should be HOLY ONES.

Hi Justin

The angels are not made in God's image, nor did the angels have anything to do with creation.

 Isaiah 44:24   Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

 

When God said 'our image' his Word was with him.  God's Word which comes out of him is spirit also.  The same Word that God made into flesh.

John 16:27   For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John 17:8   For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 

John 1:1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[Sister]

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

Has anyone considered that the term "sons of God" is used elsewhere in scripture, including the N.T.?

This whole controversy, to me, is yet another mis-read. The sons of God is probably meant to be "men of renown" who were at on time respected but began to collect multiple "wives" and engaged in building a stock of descendants for a form of clan-ism to rule over others. Thus they "fell" from the grace they once enjoyed and had to resort to the common corruption we still see in the despotism today.  

Uriah

Genesis chapter 6 is focusing on the corruption of man.  Every one had gone wicked.  God has not gone into depth in explaining these 'sons of God' or 'giants', because it's too deep, and too complicated for a beginner to understand, therefore, he just gave us the crumbs so that we can focus on the flood and how only 8 souls were spared.

Men are also regarded as 'sons of God', and to be more specific, holy men, and here is an example;

Romans 8:14   For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

But there are another type of 'the sons of God' and these are not men;

Job 1:6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:9   Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Does this look like a meeting with God is on earth with man?  With Satan standing amongst them?

and here again;

Job 2:1   Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:3   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

This doesn't seem like a meeting on earth with man?  So again these sons of God, are not the human type.  They are angels.

 

The 'men of renown' are those that have left a name for themselves.  The so called gods of old.  It's old today, and it was even old when Moses penned Genesis - long after the flood.

I don't think this issue with 'the sons of God' is a misread, but a misunderstanding, not being able to tell the difference between the two.  Angels are God's creation also.  They look up to him and worship him.  He loves them also and teaches them, they adore him and return that love, and they too can live forever blessed, or have their existence wiped out in the lake of fire as cursed creatures.

 

The angels are also our 'brethren' for we all serve the same God.  Look at what this angel told John;

Revelation 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The angels are our brethren, also sons of God.

 

and one last proof;

 Job 38:7   When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The morning stars are the angels, the sons of God.  All created before God finished forming the earth, and knew God before man was created.  They saw God's work finished and were in awe of his handiwork.

I think this is all worth looking into.  Checking out the evidence regarding these sons of God - how there are two types.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Sister
meeting on earth (with man) to make more clear

[Justin Adams]

5 hours ago, Sister said:

The angels are not made in God's image, nor did the angels have anything to do with creation.

"Let us make man in OUR image". God is talking to His Council, His extant Holy Ones or sons of God. "And the stars (angelos) shouted for joy" at creation.

Then God (singular Elohim) created them. The angels or heavenly host do not create.

The 'us' is NOT the trinity talking out loud to itself - they instantly know anyway.
No, it is God talking to His other created Sons of God. The members of His Divine Council.

To say otherwise is an argument from silence and mere conjecture. Read the Hebrew and understand the verb and participles.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Diaste]

On 8/22/2020 at 10:49 AM, douggg said:

You ask me and I gave you my answer, as it pertains to me.        I was not speaking on behalf of others.

You could apply your same rationale that billions have different religious views than Christians - so what?   It is a foregone conclusion.

 

Yes. but within the 'church' even we see so many conclusions based on "God led me." or "God told me." How is it that the Christian church can vary so widely in their conclusions based on the same set of facts? One God, One Spirit, One Savior, One Word; hundreds of disparate conclusions. 

I don't think this is a good thing. It looks like a fractured mirror to me.

[Diaste]

On 8/23/2020 at 4:55 AM, douggg said:

Diaste, you are drifting off course.   Just let it go, and get back on focus to the order of events.

And yet we have here, with just 5 or 6 people, differing conclusions of the order of events and timing and all are saying God led them to the conclusion they hold. 

It's concerning.

[Diaste]

On 9/7/2020 at 7:38 PM, Charlie744 said:

Well, I have read all the verses you provided but I can not find anything that speaks to the angels having the ability or allowance by God to have relationships with mankind. I really don’t believe they even have a gender and I think their “purpose for their creation” had nothing to do with procreation - but they were also given “free choice or free will”.

Scripture says sons of God procreated with women.

On 9/7/2020 at 7:38 PM, Charlie744 said:

.

God would NEVER allow Satan or his buddies (neither male or female - even though they have no gender), to physically interact with man! God has restricted these animals and He has shown us this limitation- Satan could only deceive Eve, he could not force her... Later, God allowed us to see how He would limit Satan to harm Job... but this wasn’t to show us how He would allow bad angels to harm us, this was a lesson of faith and trust in Job. 

The serpent interacted with Eve. Satan interacted with Jesus. Jesus cast out spirits possessing people.