The Antichrist's seven year covenant with many

[luigi]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, luigi.

The person who "confirms the covenant with many for one week" cannot be "the prince that shall come" in 9:26. That person cannot be the subject of the verbs in 9:27. The "antecedent of the 'he's'" in verse 27 (or rather the subject of the Hebrew verbs in verse 27) MUST go back to "the Messiah" of verse 26. THEREFORE, the "Antichrist" or the "beast's mouth" cannot be found in Daniel 9:24-27.

SO,

you are building your theories on the "covenant (confirmed) with many for one week" upon a faulty premise. It's time to scrap this line of thinking and re-start your eschatological viewpoint from at least that point onward.

Shalom Retrobyter, Verbs or context? The action in Daniel 9:27 is about an Abomination of desolation who after making desolate terminates the sacrifice (of people) in the middle of the week in which a covenant has been confirmed. The Messiah does not fit into this scenario. I therefore choose context over verbage. 

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Edited August 31, 2020 by luigi

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Millions that don't see the truth? Yeah, I can see that happening.

You have that backwards: perhaps it is YOU that does not have the truth, and millions SEE the truth.

I know - such a thing could NEVER be true in some minds.

Edited August 31, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

God gave it to Jesus..............anyone can COPY............That is why a lot of people say it doesn't look like Johns writing. It is God's....He gave it to Jesus to give to us. I could have copied it, even you could have copied it, but I don't think you would have ever understood it. John probably didn't understand it, like Daniel didn't understand what he was given. It took time to understand these things via HISTORY.

The part where it says Many will go TO & FRO, doesn't mean TRAVEL, it means many will go over Daniels writings TO & FRO (Back and forth, as we read) and in the very end men's Knowledge will increase, and we will be given these understandings. The Computer and the Internet has given men the ability to learn much faster. Can you imagine having to go to a library to get so and so's book, or his opinions, where we can juxtapose off each other? 

I have learned much via debates on many message boards, many times while studying to prove some crazy idea to be CRAZY indeed I run across vast knowledge that I might have never found. HARD WORK brings fruition. When you get to Heaven and find out the Seals were only opened during the 70th week, I am going to bust a gut on you .......take it like a man.......I mean like a Glorious Body would with gentile acknowledgment of my specialized insight. Whom God chose to give because I sought long and hard, day after day for 30 plus years. 

Actually, the text TELLS US John wrote it: Christ made these things known to his servant John by sending his angel to him, ² and John has told all that he has seen...  I will agree, God is the Author; John only the writer. 

Many will go TO & FRO, doesn't mean TRAVEL  How amazing! most of the translators got that part wrong then - according to you.  I counted many translations that have it as travel. I will agree, the internet is an awesome tool. I have spent time in libraries.

When you get to heaven and find out the seals were for the church age, you will have to look me up! 

WHAT?  "my specialized insight?"   You amaze me. I hope you know, you are the only one on these threads that believes this! ;-)

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Rather, you can tell us why you THINK half of the Seventieth week is future. I know the entire week is future. One day you will know it too.

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, sir. I asked you a simple, direct question (which apparently you are not willing to answer ... or cannot answer). Don't throw this back in my lap with your avoidance method! Answer the question! What BIBLICAL PROOF do you have for splitting the 70th Seven off from the rest of the 70 Sevens and throwing it haphazardly into the future?! Answer that first!

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, sir. I asked you a simple, direct question (which apparently you are not willing to answer ... or cannot answer). Don't throw this back in my lap with your avoidance method! Answer the question! What BIBLICAL PROOF do you have for splitting the 70th Seven off from the rest of the 70 Sevens and throwing it haphazardly into the future?! Answer that first!

OK, I will answer, but with the stipulation that you will show us YOUR proof of only a half week in our future.

My proof is the book of Revelation: I find the entire 70th week there. There are 5 proofs that the second half of the week is from chapter 11 to chapter 16. The first half of the week is the trumpet judgments: God marked the entire week with 7's. It was written after 70 AD. I also have proof in Daniel: He, Daniel inserted a gap between the 69 weeks and the 70th week and IN that gap showed the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. 

Now show us all your proof. 

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Actually, the text TELLS US John wrote it: Christ made these things known to his servant John by sending his angel to him, ² and John has told all that he has seen...  I will agree, God is the Author; John only the writer. 

 

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The author DICTATES to a Secretary who writes the DICTATION and the the book is published, who is the Author? 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Many will go TO & FRO, doesn't mean TRAVEL  How amazing! most of the translators got that part wrong then - according to you.  I counted many translations that have it as travel. I will agree, the internet is an awesome tool. I have spent time in libraries.

When you get to heaven and find out the seals were for the church age, you will have to look me up! 

WHAT?  "my specialized insight?"   You amaze me. I hope you know, you are the only one on these threads that believes this! ;-)

To and Fro  over the Scriptures leads to GAINED KNOWLEDGE............What is DESCRIBED as increasing ? KNOWLEDGE !! Even Joel Richardson agrees with this brother, as do many other people. 

God is going to see you coming and say, that boy barely squeezed in, he'll argue with a wall, but he got 2 things right, the Rapture timing and Righteousness is by FAITH ALONE.  

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

OK, I will answer, but with the stipulation that you will show us YOUR proof of only a half week in our future.

My proof is the book of Revelation: I find the entire 70th week there. There are 5 proofs that the second half of the week is from chapter 11 to chapter 16. The first half of the week is the trumpet judgments: God marked the entire week with 7's. It was written after 70 AD. I also have proof in Daniel: He, Daniel inserted a gap between the 69 weeks and the 70th week and IN that gap showed the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. 

Now show us all your proof. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Good. Thank you for your answer. I like the fact that you find "5 proofs that the second half of the [Seven] is from chapter 11 to chapter 16." However, I question that the first half of the Seven is the trumpet judgments, but I'll table that for the time being.

Your answer was a bit cursory, so perhaps for the sake of brevity and succinctness, I'll do the same. It's only fair, right?

From the Hebrew I've learned and the rules for Hebrew grammar, I cannot find space for denial that the Messiah of Daniel 9:26 is the subject that completes the sentence for the verbs found in Daniel 9:27. It absolutely CANNOT be the "prince that shall come" or "nagiyd habaa' " of verse 26 since that word "nagiyd," meaning "prince," is the second noun in the noun construct state of "`am nagiyd," translated as "the people of the prince."

Therefore, although the verbs and their modifiers show negative actions in verse 27, these are JUDGMENTS by the Messiah rather than INSIDIOUS ACTIONS of an Antichrist. The frame of mind in which one reads verses 26 and 27 makes a difference in how one will respond to such a reading.

Since it is the Messiah who ...

(1) confirms a covenant with many for one Seven,
(2) in the middle of the Seven, brings an end to offering and gift, and
(3) for the spread-out wing of disgusting things, makes the people of Daniel "desolate,"

then we should find evidence that fulfills these three during the time of the First Advent of the Messiah. I contend that we DO find such evidence:

First, Yeshua` strengthens or confirms a seven year covenant by His submission to His baptism, His mikvah.

As subpoints, the covenant would be too early in His ministry to be the New Covenant, and yet it is not the Mosaic Covenant, either. It would fit that it would be the Davidic Covenant, because ...

a) David first served as the King of the Jews, as would His Seed, for seven years;
b) 3.5 years after starting His offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, His death brought in the TRUE Sacrifice which was the "reality" for all the myriads of "picture" sacrifices down through the centuries, and this TRUE Sacrifice made the "picture" sacrifices and gifts superfluous and no longer necessary to a PERFECT God, YHWH; and
c) for the multiple disgusting actions of the scribes and Pharisees, Yeshua` pronounced their house "desolate."

YHWH God, Yeshua`s Father, also seemed to confirm this Davidic Covenant at His baptism with the anointing of His Son with the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) and reinforcing the words of the Davidic Covenant by saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

Leaving the house of the Jews "desolate," was the turning point in the Seventieth Seven. By postponing the rest of the Seven until He returns, HE split the Seventieth Seven in half!

This is why there is "only a half week in our future." The first half of the Seven was fulfilled in what is commonly called the "Ministry of our Lord" during His First Advent, the offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, the members of His own tribe, Yhudah or "Judah."

I'll stop there for now.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Good. Thank you for your answer. I like the fact that you find "5 proofs that the second half of the [Seven] is from chapter 11 to chapter 16." However, I question that the first half of the Seven is the trumpet judgments, but I'll table that for the time being.

Your answer was a bit cursory, so perhaps for the sake of brevity and succinctness, I'll do the same. It's only fair, right?

From the Hebrew I've learned and the rules for Hebrew grammar, I cannot find space for denial that the Messiah of Daniel 9:26 is the subject that completes the sentence for the verbs found in Daniel 9:27. It absolutely CANNOT be the "prince that shall come" or "nagiyd habaa' " of verse 26 since that word "nagiyd," meaning "prince," is the second noun in the noun construct state of "`am nagiyd," translated as "the people of the prince."

Therefore, although the verbs and their modifiers show negative actions in verse 27, these are JUDGMENTS by the Messiah rather than INSIDIOUS ACTIONS of an Antichrist. The frame of mind in which one reads verses 26 and 27 makes a difference in how one will respond to such a reading.

Since it is the Messiah who ...

(1) confirms a covenant with many for one Seven,
(2) in the middle of the Seven, brings an end to offering and gift, and
(3) for the spread-out wing of disgusting things, makes the people of Daniel "desolate,"

then we should find evidence that fulfills these three during the time of the First Advent of the Messiah. I contend that we DO find such evidence:

First, Yeshua` strengthens or confirms a seven year covenant by His submission to His baptism, His mikvah.

As subpoints, the covenant would be too early in His ministry to be the New Covenant, and yet it is not the Mosaic Covenant, either. It would fit that it would be the Davidic Covenant, because ...

a) David first served as the King of the Jews, as would His Seed, for seven years;
b) 3.5 years after starting His offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, His death brought in the TRUE Sacrifice which was the "reality" for all the myriads of "picture" sacrifices down through the centuries, and this TRUE Sacrifice made the "picture" sacrifices and gifts superfluous and no longer necessary to a PERFECT God, YHWH; and
c) for the multiple disgusting actions of the scribes and Pharisees, Yeshua` pronounced their house "desolate."

YHWH God, Yeshua`s Father, also seemed to confirm this Davidic Covenant at His baptism with the anointing of His Son with the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) and reinforcing the words of the Davidic Covenant by saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

Leaving the house of the Jews "desolate," was the turning point in the Seventieth Seven. By postponing the rest of the Seven until He returns, HE split the Seventieth Seven in half!

This is why there is "only a half week in our future." The first half of the Seven was fulfilled in what is commonly called the "Ministry of our Lord" during His First Advent, the offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, the members of His own tribe, Yhudah or "Judah."

I'll stop there for now.

I understand this is what YOU believe the Hebrew proves. I find others that I guess are fluent in Hebrew (they translate the entire bible into English) that disagree with you. (for example the translators of the Amp. Bible and others) I find Commentators (again I would suppose they are fluent in Hebrew) that disagree with you. I guess the only think left to say is, who are you?  Why should I believe you over people that have translated the entire Old Testament from Hebrew into English? 

Next, the Messiah confirmed a covenant that LASTS FOREVER! (not 7 years!) 

He did NOT "bring and end" to the offerings. They continued on for YEARS. (Maybe you WANT this to fit: I find it does not.  What He did accomplish is to do away with the necessity of animal sacrifices. I think, of your theory were true, Daniel would have worded it differently. 

You and I are just going to disagree. We can wait and see. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The author DICTATES to a Secretary who writes the DICTATION and the the book is published, who is the Author? 

To and Fro  over the Scriptures leads to GAINED KNOWLEDGE............What is DESCRIBED as increasing ? KNOWLEDGE !! Even Joel Richardson agrees with this brother, as do many other people. 

God is going to see you coming and say, that boy barely squeezed in, he'll argue with a wall, but he got 2 things right, the Rapture timing and Righteousness is by FAITH ALONE.  

Except it does not say ""over the Scriptures..." Are you added to John's book? Poke fun all you want. I have Rhino skin!  ;-) I have even read the book on "Advanced Rhinocerology!"

Edited August 31, 2020 by iamlamad

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Except it does not say ""over the Scriptures..." Are you added to John's book? Poke fun all you want. I have Rhino skin!  ;-) I have even read the book on "Advanced Rhinocerology!"

And it doesn't say TRAVELING either, seems you overlooked that tidbit via convenience as per your understanding.  But the facts are on my side, as usual, the very thing that DESCRIBES what is gained via going TO and FRO is KNOWLEDGE.........Not many miles. 

I have DEFLATED another one of your bubbles it seems.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Revelation Man