Great Tribulation

[Michael37]

25 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

You missed the target by so much I am not even going to try to straighten this out. 

Detailed descriptions of the events leading up to and including the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD are indeed worthwhile reading and will straighten out much twisted theology unless the reader is totally implacable. 

[JohnR7]

On 10/5/2020 at 4:37 PM, WilliamL said:

So either Daniel was a false prophet, or else (assuredly) your eschatology is incorrect.

It seems like I say this in every post. The Bible is literal, symbolic AND numerical. In Bible college they teach us to FIRST look at who the original audience was and THEN you can look at the symbolic meaning of a passage. We must be as a child to enter into the things of God. So we can never abandon the simple literal understanding. We need to build upon a firm foundation. 

Jesus was dealing with two questions: ""Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?" Jesus was talking to "Jewish" people who did not even know that the Gentiles could be saved. This was a very big surprise to them. I can assure you these people never heard of a "church age" or "time of the gentiles" or "Holy Spirit dispensation". 

So I am looking at the people Jesus was talking to and the meaning His words had for them. ONLY after we do that can we look to see what Jesus is saying to us today in our time and in our generation. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by JohnR7

[Retrobyter]

On 10/5/2020 at 8:52 AM, JohnR7 said:

OR does not mean both, it means one or the other. Either or. The Bible is literal, symbolic & numerical all at the same time. A day in Genesis is a literal 24 hour day. A day is symbolic of all time and all ages. A day is numeral in that a day represents 1,000 years. 

 

We have science and history also. God gives us more than Scripture.  The Universe is said to be 13.77 billion years. The ONLY way this fits in with Genesis chapter one is if a day is half the length of the day before. http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

You can reject science if you want but Schroder has a PhD from MIT. So I am most likely going to go with that until you show me where you earned your PhD. For me it is pretty sad if you have to reject science to get your interpretation of the Bible to work. Science goes a long way to helping us understand our Bible and I believe that God gives us science for a reason. 

We do have death before sin, at least the sin of Adam and Eve because they lived around 6,000 years ago and there was plenty of death in this world before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Paul talks about "death by sin" (Romans 5:12)  I did a bit of research on this and every dead body before Adam and Eve was killed. Like Cain said: " whoever finds me will kill me". (Genesis 4:14) Cain had good reason to be worried. Often they find an arrowhead or spearhead in the body. At times the skull was smashed by a rock.   What is famous are the bodies they find in the bogs of England. Because they are so well preserved. In 1996, Bryan Sykes of the University of Oxford first sequenced the mitochondrial DNA from one of Cheddar Man's molars.

 

The only distinction is the first day. This was not day one, it was the beginning day. Then you could have day two, three, four and so on. 

Shalom, JohnR7.

I don't have a problem with science; I have a problem with anti-God, Evolutionary PHILOSOPHY that passes itself off as "science!"  To say "the Universe is said to be 13.77 billion years [old]" is NOT science! It's PHILOSOPHY! That's what they expect to find, so that's what they magically "find!"

Do you understand that true science involves OBSERVATION and REPEATABLE EXPERIMENTATION? How are you going to do that with 13.77 billion years?! You can't observe it. It was supposedly done 13.77 BILLION YEARS ago! You can't repeat it with some experiment because there's no science known to mankind that could duplicate it!

What you are REALLY hearing from our so-called "scientists" is their PHILOSOPHY that "anything can happen given enough time!" So, they DUMP billions of years into the mix HOPING that it will be enough time to accomplish naturally without God's involvement what ONLY God can do by simply SPEAKING it into existence! Now, we have "bright" individuals who think God must have accomplished all of His work with long periods of time! No, God is MUCH stronger than that! He accomplished ALL of His work in SIX 24-hour days! And, this is what GOD HIMSELF TOLD US!!!

Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that iswithin thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And, the word for "day" ("yowm") is the same word used in verse 9 (sheeshet yamiym = "six days") as it was in verse 11 (sheeshet yamiym = "six days")! It happened in the FIRST week the same as it happens in EVERY week since then! 

And for the record, the Shabbat ("Sabbath") was given to us as a day of rest since ADAM! It wasn't a Jewish thing! It was a UNIVERSAL holy day given to ALL of Adam's race, the HUMAN race! Furthermore, the Shabbat is and always has been Saturday, from sundown on Friday evening to sundown on Saturday!

Qayin (or "Cain") was the SON of Adam and Chavah ("Eve" which should be pronounced "Eh-veh"); his worry was that one of their OTHER children would seek to take vengeance for Qayin killing Hevel ("Abel"). They didn't just have three children, Qayin, Hevel, and Shet ("Seth"). The Scriptures specifically say, 

Genesis 5:3-5 (KJV)

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

And, yes, that is literal, too! Adam lived to the age of 930 years old!

So, NO, there was NOT death before sin! Death and decay were the RESULTS of sin!

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

You've already alluded to it, but Rav Sha'uwl Paulos ("Paul") wrote:

Romans 5:12-14 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.) 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Just trust the Scriptures and let the Evolutionists suffer their own fate alone. After all, THEY TOO will appear before the Great White Throne Judgment.

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 To say "the Universe is said to be 13.77 billion years [old]" is NOT science!

The age of the Universe is based on the Hubble Space Satellite and Trigonometry. I took trig in college. This is the same science we use for GPS technology. We can also use geology to help us establish the age of the earth. In addition to the expanding universe the Moon is moving away from the earth and the spin rate of the earth is slowing down. This is causing the day to get longer. So there are many ways to verify our results. Both of my sons are engineers. The younger is a computer engineer with a minor in math and the other is a electronic engineer. So there is a huge amount of very advanced math that is a part of our household for many years now. My son is very good at developing formulas that save time.  There was actually a collision between the moon and the earth at one point in time. We can use this math to help us establish the age of our solar system.  If you use Gerold Schroeder (PhD MIT) theory on each day in Genesis is half the length of the previous day then all the pieces of the puzzle begin to fall into place. The Earth is 4.543 billion years old. So if day one was 13.77 and day two was half of that, then day two would have began 6.885 billion years. Day three would be 3.44 billion years. This is when the "the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit" So using Schroeders formula that is so easy a child can understand, we can begin to see how the Bible agrees with Science. In fact I have had an open challenge for years for anyone anywhere to use science to falsify the Bible in any way. No one has ever been able to do that. 

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Do you understand that true science involves OBSERVATION and REPEATABLE EXPERIMENTATION? How are you going to do that with 13.77 billion years?! You can't observe it.

Yes you actually can observe the early universe. The light from the early universe is traveling along with us as the universe expands. They have some very beautiful photos that they have taken with the Hubble. We can see stars at different stages of their life cycle. Also every element is a different color on the spectrograph. So we can use that to determine what elements are in a star. 

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

What you are REALLY hearing from our so-called "scientists" is their PHILOSOPHY that "anything can happen given enough time!"

I was going along with Francis Collins theistic evolution even though there were gross inaccuracies and it is just poor sloppy work. Now Collins given us this virus I am no longer willing to support him or his theory. I have gone back to supporting Evo Devo: Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo
by Sean B. Carroll. Also I support Gerold Schroeder as we have already talked about. In addition I fully support Bishop Ussher and his book written over 500 years ago. 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Now, we have "bright" individuals who think God must have accomplished all of His work with long periods of time!

The conservative Jewish belief is that a day is a literal 24 hour day. Yet that day contains all time and all ages. The Bible is literal, symbolic and numerical. All three at the same time. Best Selling author Cahn uses the word Paradigm which is a pattern. The "Jewish" Creationists use the word Archetype. This is also a word Jung use when he developed his theory of Archetype personalities that we find in things like Walt Disney's movies and cartoons. In Bible School they use the term Shadows and Types. All different ways to explain the same thing. 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He accomplished ALL of His work in SIX 24-hour days! And, this is what GOD HIMSELF TOLD US!!!

Yes they have you covered on that. Also God HIMSELF told me about the expanding universe in a dream when I was camping out once with the cub scouts when I was a child. He took me out into the universe and explained to me how the universe is expanding but at some point the universe will shrink and all come back together again. The "Jewish" creationists call this a contracting universe when the universe began it began by contracting. They say the universe started out smaller than a mustard seed. Neil DeGrassse Tyson wrote a very interesting book about that: "Astrophysics for People in a Hurry". He talks about the beginning and a millionth of a second had passed and the universe was a trillion degrees Kelvin. This is based on Max Planct's work. Also they talk about the "Goldilock Zone". This reminds me of the Creationist "Fine Tuning of the Universe" theory. So for me all of this is very interesting. If it is boring to you so that you do not want to study and learn, will I can understand that. I was extremely bored with the public education they give people. The best thing that ever happened to me was when I learned that education does not have to be boring. When I learned that Science and the Bible agree with each other this was even better. There simply is no conflict or contradiction between Science and the Bible. 

[JohnR7]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, NO, there was NOT death before sin! Death and decay were the RESULTS of sin!

We have tons of evidence that includes fossils and dinosaur bones. It is plain and clear that God WANTS us to know and that is why He gives us all of the evidence to examine. We have fossils so common they are a dime a dozen.  I was at a gemstone show once and there was a guy there that wanted to give us fossils for free back when my son was young and impressionable. So we have our own little collection that we have discovered and found over the years. My son is very good at spotting that stuff. They delivered a load of limestone to us once for a project we were working on and he found a fossil in their right off. When they were building the new hospital here we were wondering around the excavation site with all the heavy earth moving equipment and he found a fossil there that they had dug up. He is just very good at stuff like that. This does not even get into man made artifacts and what man needed to survive in order to come up out of africa into the Tigris-Euphrates river valley where we find Eden - Adam and Eve around 6,000 years ago. 

For me it does not matter what you do. If you want to believe Science then believe Science. If you want to believe the Bible then believe the Bible. If you want to believe both then believe both because there is no conflict at all between true science and a proper interpretation of the Bible. Science goes a long way to help us to understand what God is speaking to us in our Bible. 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Just trust the Scriptures and let the Evolutionists suffer their own fate alone.

The fate they are going to suffer is that their theory proves the Bible is accurate and true. So they will be without excuse. We can study the natural evidence that God has given us because He wants us to understand. He gives us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. We live in a time when Daniel says understanding will increase. The Bible is based on common ancestor. Adam, Eve & Eden. Science also is based on common ancestor and they use the terms Adam, Eve & Eden. There is a interesting book called: The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry by Bryan Sykes .  His book explains a lot. I believe a day will come when they will have the whole human race mapped out and we will know exactly who is descended from who. I am descended from a Bible Translator that was Bloody Mary's first martyr. We are told that God shows His: "loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments". (Exodus 20:6) So they talk about Generational curses that can be broken but also there are generational blessings that God gives us. 

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

The age of the Universe is based on the Hubble Space Satellite and Trigonometry. I took trig in college. This is the same science we use for GPS technology. We can also use geology to help us establish the age of the earth. In addition to the expanding universe the Moon is moving away from the earth and the spin rate of the earth is slowing down. This is causing the day to get longer. So there are many ways to verify our results. Both of my sons are engineers. The younger is a computer engineer with a minor in math and the other is a electronic engineer. So there is a huge amount of very advanced math that is a part of our household for many years now. My son is very good at developing formulas that save time.  There was actually a collision between the moon and the earth at one point in time. We can use this math to help us establish the age of our solar system.  If you use Gerold Schroeder (PhD MIT) theory on each day in Genesis is half the length of the previous day then all the pieces of the puzzle begin to fall into place. The Earth is 4.543 billion years old. So if day one was 13.77 and day two was half of that, then day two would have began 6.885 billion years. Day three would be 3.44 billion years. This is when the "the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit" So using Schroeders formula that is so easy a child can understand, we can begin to see how the Bible agrees with Science. In fact I have had an open challenge for years for anyone anywhere to use science to falsify the Bible in any way. No one has ever been able to do that. 

The thing God requires from us is let His Word rule our imaginations:
2 Cor 10:5

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
KJV

As obedience to God is considered love back to Him:

 

John 14:23 (KJV)

[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1 John 4:19 (KJV)

[19] We love him, because he first loved us.

John 14:21 (KJV)

 

[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Matthew 22:36-40 (KJV)

[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

[38] This is the first and great commandment.

[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Leviticus 22:31 (KJV)

[31] Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD.

So the real question here lies in this- are you relying on God's Word or educated surmise? God clearly has identified His works to be from Him and Jesus made this claim:
John 14:6 (KJV)

[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

evolutionary philosophy depends on death to bring about life... this does not fit the descriptive of God in His Word!

[JohnR7]

7 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

The thing God requires from us is let His Word rule our imaginations:

That was the reason for the flood. "And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". (Genesis 6:5)

People do not object if you use your imagination for Harrry Potter. If you use your imagination to bring praise, honor and glory to God then the ultra liberals start to take issue with that. 

[enoob57]

6 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

That was the reason for the flood. "And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". (Genesis 6:5)

People do not object if you use your imagination for Harrry Potter. If you use your imagination to bring praise, honor and glory to God then the ultra liberals start to take issue with that. 

John as this is definitely relational aspect between God and the individual I only use this as between God and myself... not to judge others for -for certain-...  I am personally always examining my foundation of thought whether it be from a diligent study of His Word or man suggested ideas.... God Bless, Steven

[WilliamL]

On 10/5/2020 at 2:37 PM, WilliamL said:

Daniel 12:1 In that time Michael shall stand up...and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation...

In what time?

11:40 In the time of the end...

The complex series of multi-national events of Daniel 11:40-45, which precede the Great Tribulation of 12:1, were not fulfilled in the first century AD. So either Daniel was a false prophet, or else (assuredly) your eschatology is incorrect.

Expand  Expand  

 

On 10/5/2020 at 6:12 PM, JohnR7 said:

You missed the target by so much I am not even going to try to straighten this out. 

On 10/6/2020 at 9:06 PM, JohnR7 said:

So I am looking at the people Jesus was talking to and the meaning His words had for them. ONLY after we do that can we look to see what Jesus is saying to us today in our time and in our generation. 

A lot of beating around the bush, because you really don't have a literal historical answer for the points I brought out.

At the time the Lord gave the Olivet discourse, the disciples had not yet received the Holy Spirit, so practically everything he said was hidden to them. As it is to you, I might add.

The fact remains that Daniel 11:40-45ff. will be fulfilled in our day, and was in no way fulfilled during the 1st century AD. If it was, you could easily supply a detailed historical account. But you can't, because it didn't happen then.