Daniel 7:7 v. 7:19 (bronze claws)

[Charlie744]

First, that was / is some great stuff (purely a bear biblical term)!

IF I understand some of what you mentioned, I think may be seeing the same... but here goes...

The more I think about this, the more comfortable I find- the 4th kingdom, headed by the beast (RCC / pope), will conquer and destroy from its inception to the second coming. This is revealed through their use of their iron teeth (they tear and chew apart their enimies without any sense of feeling or guilt. And they will continue to destroy by also stamping their enimies into the ground (completely) by their symbolic feet (not toed or nails since both 7 & 19 mention “feet”). Consequently, 7:7 addresses the “beasts” destruction only. 

Then, between 7 & 19, we have a further interpretation where the heavenly being tells Daniel the exact same interpretation BUT He adds that fact that the “nails of brass” will destroy and conquer. Verse 19 and the revealing of Jesus (between 7 & 19) is telling us all these things will happen and then Jesus will come to judge (nails of brass - His judgement). Therefore, from the inception of the beast to His second coming is ~ 2,000 years. The beast will destroy and conquer until Jesus - God is telling Daniel and us (although there is NO way Daniel could have possibly understood this- so it really is for us), these things must take place BUT I will come again to judge and conquer at the end of time. 

How does that come across to you?

Please also note I can not discuss anything re: Revelation since I have not Star studying it... I am attempting to finish Daniel before I start Revelation- if I can’t get Daniel right, I would never get Revelation correct- it MUST work that way! They MUST fit like a hand in a glove, but Daniel MUST be interpreted FIRST. Charlie 

[Charlie744]

Ok and I understand your point, but I think I just may have reduced my answer (especially re: the beast / RCC) because that is not my focus.

Let me make this clearer if I can:

The beast (is not the little horn), and the beast is not the RCC. The beast, however it is found to be will use their symbolic iron teeth AND their feet to conquer and destroy (Daniel 7:7).

The heavenly being arrives in chapter 7 and AFTER introducing Jesus to the “vision” tells Daniel the exact events that must occur (per 7:7), but now He informs Daniel that He (Jesus) will come and judge and conquer (nails of brass). 

The ONLY two changes are:

1) Jesus enters the vision AT THE END of the period where the beast does their destruction, 

2) He (nails of brass) arrives to judge and conquer the beast and all His enimies.

Hope this isolates the issue and does not attempt to discuss or identify the beast. But just a note- the beast might just be the worst attributes of the previous 3 kingdoms PLUS the ferocious dealings of Rome... in other words, there is NO limit to man’s evil! 

Charlie

[Michael37]

19 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok and I understand your point, but I think I just may have reduced my answer (especially re: the beast / RCC) because that is not my focus.

Let me make this clearer if I can:

The beast (is not the little horn), and the beast is not the RCC. The beast, however it is found to be will use their symbolic iron teeth AND their feet to conquer and destroy (Daniel 7:7).

The heavenly being arrives in chapter 7 and AFTER introducing Jesus to the “vision” tells Daniel the exact events that must occur (per 7:7), but now He informs Daniel that He (Jesus) will come and judge and conquer (nails of brass). 

The ONLY two changes are:

1) Jesus enters the vision AT THE END of the period where the beast does their destruction, 

2) He (nails of brass) arrives to judge and conquer the beast and all His enimies.

Hope this isolates the issue and does not attempt to discuss or identify the beast. But just a note- the beast might just be the worst attributes of the previous 3 kingdoms PLUS the ferocious dealings of Rome... in other words, there is NO limit to man’s evil! 

Charlie

Sorry Charlie, You are in error with this. I pray you will seek and receive the true meaning. Jesus is not being depicted by the nails of brass image in Daniel's vision. I suggest you consult the commentaries available online.

This quote is from John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible.

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Daniel 7:19
Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast;.... What it represented, what kingdom or monarchy was meant by it; for, by the above answer of the angel, he understood the four beasts signified four kings or kingdoms; the three first he pretty well understood; at least he was not so solicitous about them as about the fourth; and this he was desirous of having a very particular and exact account of; it threatening, by its appearance, a great deal of trouble to the world, and especially to the church of God: 

which was diverse from all the others; or, "from all them", or "those" (h), the other three beasts: 

exceeding dreadful; to other kingdoms and nations: 

whose teeth were of iron; of these parts of its description, see on Dan_7:7, 

and his nails of brass; this is a new circumstance, not before mentioned, and here added with great propriety: "nails" belonging to a beast of prey, and these said to be of "brass", to denote its strength, cruelty, and voraciousness in tearing its prey, to pieces; and, moreover, to show that this kingdom has somewhat of the nature of the third or Grecian monarchy, said to be of brass in Nebuchadnezzar's dream; some out of that kingdom being taken into the Roman militia, as, Theodoret observes; and soldiers are to a king what nails are to a beast: 

which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; some kingdoms and provinces were destroyed by it, and the rest were made subject to it; see Dan_7:7. 

(h) מן כלהין "a cunctis ipse", Pagninus, Montanus; "ab omnibus illis", Junius & Tremellius, Piscator.

 

 

[Charlie744]

Michael, thanks for the information...

Prior to issuing this post I was 100% convinced the nails of brass were an added feature of THE BEAST.  I had no reason to think otherwise.

After the post I tried to unpack / separate and determine what might this brass mean. As I drilled down I think I have gone somewhere off to the left and totally abandoned or even forgot my initial thought.

The more I read and reread these verses, the more I searched for the differences... 

Well, after reading your post I believe I have at least two options: I can agree with you and go back to my previous thought that the nails of brass BELONG to the beast (not the heavenly being), or I can get in my car and drive right off a high cliff - FYI, I am still debating... if you don’t see any more responses from me, then I got in my car ?. 

So, thank you very much for bringing me back to some sanity !!!!!

Ok, let me start over:

1) In 7:7 Daniel is given some characteristics of a 4th beast. Of those, one includes a “metal” (iron) component used to tear apart its enemies,

2) AFTER the coming of the heavenly being, Daniel is once again provided an interpretation of the vision. Now, there is an added feature- nails of brass are mentioned which will also be used to destroy and conquer. However, this phrase does NOT alter or remove the previously mentioned characteristics found in 7:7... just an addition.

Ok, I think I am now back safely on planet Earth, and unless I missed something between 7:7 and 7:19, it might be appropriate to try and understand what message is God giving us by this “nails of brass”.

We still have two new pieces: brass metal AND nails! The “feet” are still mentioned in both verses.

 I am going to stop here and ask you to see if we are on the same page (at this point- before we attempt to interpret it). In business, I have learned that 90% of solving a problem is to first identify the problem- this has been a perfect example where I had the right answer to the wrong problem (most likely not even that!).

So, do you agree we are at a good starting point- established the problem?Let me know— we can amend, change or improve the definition of this “problem / opportunity” and then go forward to address it. The ONLY requirement or insistence is that this issue is not color, filler, just another piece of data, etc. If the “nails of brass” comment was not added to 7:19, we would not feel any differently about the 4th beast- they still were / are a terrible force. THERE IS A VERY IMPORTANT REASON God placed this in 7:19.

Michael, thank you ?? for hitting me over the head (apparently, you needed to swing a few too many times). Please let me know your thoughts.. Charlie 

 

 

[Charlie744]

Michael, I was back searching for an answer for the “nails of brass”....

Here is another thought:

Daniel 7:7 speaks about the destruction and damage of the beast.

Daniel 7:19 speaks about the EXACT same destruction and damage, BUT it adds a very important message- this beast ALSO brings destruction and damage TO His Word, the Mosiac Law / Covenant (10 commandments).

There will always be wars and rumors of wars... people will never stop killing each other, but when Jesus returns (reason why He is brought into this chapter BETWEEN 7:7 & 7:19), He will judge those who destroyed His 10 commandments. The “little horn” sits atop the beast and thinks to change times and laws (Mosiac covenant).   Below is a part of a paragraph discussing God’s judgement—-

.... iron and the brass will rule over the wicked (who have broken the Mosaic covenant) after the day of the Lord comes to establish the new Jerusalem for the elect ("raptured" to the new Canaan) and punish the wicked with iron and brass (the 7 headed dragon).

Let me know your thoughts and thanks, Charlie 

[Michael37]

48 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

So, do you agree we are at a good starting point- established the problem? Let me know— we can amend, change or improve the definition of this “problem / opportunity” and then go forward to address it. The ONLY requirement or insistence is that this issue is not color, filler, just another piece of data, etc. If the “nails of brass” comment was not added to 7:19, we would not feel any differently about the 4th beast- they still were / are a terrible force. THERE IS A VERY IMPORTANT REASON God placed this in 7:19.

Michael, thank you ?? for hitting me over the head (apparently, you needed to swing a few too many times). Please let me know your thoughts.. Charlie 

Hi Charlie, 

The main thing is that we edify one another, that is, we help one another grow spiritually. I enjoy cross-referencing Scripture and carefully sorting through various interpretations to "rightly divide" or "allocate portions" appropriately. 

In the OT the main oppressors of Israel are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, & Rome. 

As you may know the OT Books of Prophecy can be divided into Pre-exilic, Exilic, & Post-Exilic. As an exilic prophet Daniel prophesied during the exile of Israel in Babylon. The quote below is worth reading for further insight.

Notes from Wkpd on The Book of Daniel

 

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Meaning, symbolism and chronology[edit]

The message of the Book of Daniel is that, just as the God of Israel saved Daniel and his friends from their enemies, so he would save all Israel in their present oppression.^[3] The book is filled with monsters, angels, and numerology, drawn from a wide range of sources, both biblical and non-biblical, that would have had meaning in the context of 2nd-century Jewish culture, and while Christian interpreters have always viewed these as predicting events in the New Testament—"the Son of God", "the Son of Man", Christ and the Antichrist—the book's intended audience is the Jews of the 2nd century BCE.^[52] The following explains a few of these predictions, as understood by modern biblical scholars.

• The four kingdoms and the little horn (Daniel 2 and 7): The concept of four successive world empires stems from Greek theories of mythological history.^[53] Most modern interpreters agree that the four represent Babylon, the Medes, Persia and the Greeks, ending with Hellenistic Seleucid Syria and with Hellenistic Ptolemaic Egypt.^[54] The traditional interpretation of the dream identifies the four empires as the Babylonian (the head), Medo-Persian (arms and shoulders), Greek (thighs and legs), and Roman (the feet) empires.^[55] The symbolism of four metals in the statue in chapter 2 comes from Persian writings,^[53] while the four "beasts from the sea" in chapter 7 reflect Hosea 13:7–8, in which God threatens that he will be to Israel like a lion, a leopard, a bear or a wild beast.^[56] The consensus among scholars is that the four beasts of chapter 7 symbolise the same four world empires.^[57] The modern interpretation views Antiochus IV (reigned 175–164 BCE) as the "small horn" that uproots three others (Antiochus usurped the rights of several other claimants to become king of the Seleucid Empire).^[58]
• The Ancient of Days and the one like a son of man (Daniel 7): The portrayal of God in Daniel 7:13 resembles the portrayal of the Canaanite god El as an ancient divine king presiding over the divine court.^[59] The "Ancient of Days" gives dominion over the earth to "one like a son of man", and then in Daniel 7:27 to "the people of the holy ones of the Most High", whom scholars consider the son of man to represent. These people can be understood as the maskilim (sages), or as the Jewish people broadly.^{[60][Notes 6]}
• The ram and he-goat (Daniel 8) as conventional astrological symbols represent Persia and Syria, as the text explains. The "mighty horn" stands for Alexander the Great (reigned 336–323 BCE) and the "four lesser horns" represent the four principal generals (Diadochi) who fought over the Greek empire following Alexander's death. The "little horn" again represents Antiochus IV. The key to the symbols lies in the description of the little horn's actions: he ends the continual burnt offering and overthrows the Sanctuary, a clear reference to Antiochus' desecration of the Temple.^[61

 

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[Charlie744]

Thanks Michael... I have read this and many more similar articles ... I would say that the traditional view is dominant with the post Alexander/pre-Roman kingdom representing almost all of chapter 11 (maybe first 30 or so verses).

For me, I certainly find the traditional view to be correct, but find chapter 11 is the beginning of the 4th kingdom NOT pre-Rome (a spiritual not a physical approach). This is because chapter 11 must unpack and expand on the 4th kingdom, AND start to identify and discuss: the beast, the little horn, the 10 horns, and the 3 plucked up... this is the time (next to last chapter) that God will have to enlarge / expand our understanding of these actors WITHIN His Plan of Salvation.

But that is getting off the subject and for later discussion.

So, getting back to 7:19, it might speak to the 2nd coming of Jesus where He will address the destructive forces of the beast- damage to mankind AND His Word (Mosiac Covenant).

Charlie

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

So, getting back to 7:19, it might speak to the 2nd coming of Jesus where He will address the destructive forces of the beast- damage to mankind AND His Word (Mosiac Covenant).

Charlie

Or not, since the matter is done and dusted with events following the occupation of Israel by Greece and Rome prior to the birth of Christ.

[Charlie744]

Unfortunately, you have lost me...

Can you elaborate please?

 Thanks, Charlie 

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Unfortunately, you have lost me...

Can you elaborate please?

 Thanks, Charlie 

I suggest you read up on Jewish history from Daniel's time in exile to the birth of Christ.

Of particular interest is Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Quote from Antiochus IV Epiphanes Wikipedia Page:

 

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Jewish tradition[edit]

Antiochus IV ruled the Jews from 175 to 164 BC. He is remembered as a major villain and persecutor in the Jewish traditions associated with Hanukkah, including the books of Maccabees and the "Scroll of Antiochus".^[29] Rabbinical sources refer to him as הרשע harasha ("the wicked"); the Jewish Encyclopedia concluded that "since Jewish and heathen sources agree in their characterization of him, their portrayal is evidently correct", summarizing this portrayal as one of a cruel and vainglorious ruler who tried to force on all the peoples of his realm a Hellenic culture, "the true essence of which he can scarcely be said to have appreciated".[30] Whether Antiochus' policy was directed at extermination of Judaism as a culture and a religion, though, is debatable on the grounds that his persecution was limited to Judea and Samaria (Jews in the diaspora were exempt), and that Antiochus was hardly an ideologically motivated Hellenizer. Erich S. Gruen suggests that, instead, he was driven more by pragmatics such as the need to gather income from Judea.[14]