2 Corinthians 5:8 Absent from the Lord....

[Charlie744]

I think it might be safe to say that MOST folks believe this verse to confirm once an individual passes (in Christ), he or she will be “present in the Lord”.

 This might mean:

    a) their body goes back to the earth while their spirit or soul goes immediately into the presence of God,

   b) their body goes back to the earth, and because there is no sense of time, the next thing we see or become aware of is the presence of God,

   c) their body goes back to the earth, and His spirit that went into us (God breathed His spirit into Adam and he BECAME a living soul), returns to Him. At the end of time He will bring the two (Spirit + body) back together once again.

 I think these maybe the most accepted beliefs (?). 

Just about everyone I speak to only makes the statement, “absent from the body, present with the Lord”, as opposed to including the word “RATHER “. 

Consequently, from my point of view, the only reason why God would insert the word “RATHER” is to tell us this message speaks to the understanding (attempted, since there is no way we can fully appreciate being in His presence), we should / will learn just how much more we will rather be with Him than stay in this life .. death is not the end to fear. And this is the PRIMARY message and not that the next second we will be with Him.

So, what do you think is the PRIMARY message and your thoughts on this?

 Thank you, Charlie 

 

[Adstar]

The Spirit goes to be in the presence of God.. We read in the Book of Revelation..

(Revelation 7:9-14) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. {11} And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, {12} Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. {13} And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Also::

(Revelation 6:9-11) "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The above Saints where experiencing time ( probably not earth time ) but they where experiencing time in heaven while the earthwas still yet to be judged..

 

[Charlie744]

Thank you for your comments!

Since I have not studied Revelation, I am hesitant to comment on this, but could your two references be a quick picture to John of what will be at the end times, as opposed to representing these souls have been with Him after each of their deaths?

Besides Revelation, are there other verses that might support one side or another? It seems this kind is an issue or event that is just too important to leave to one verse (except for your quotes in Revelation).  If so, it would leave man quite a lot of room to interpret this... and even though I am a novice in Scripture, I don’t believe God wants to leave too much for him to interpret .... Thanks again, Charlie 

[R. Hartono]

7 hours ago, Adstar said:

The Spirit goes to be in the presence of God.. We read in the Book of Revelation..

(Revelation 7:9-14) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. {11} And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, {12} Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. {13} And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Also::

(Revelation 6:9-11) "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The above Saints where experiencing time ( probably not earth time ) but they where experiencing time in heaven while the earthwas still yet to be judged..

 

The great multitude of Rev 7 were the living n the deceased whose soul was resurrected from Gehenna n then raptured to heaven as bride of Christ.

But the souls of under the Altar of Rev 6 were martrys in 7 years great tribulation who were beheaded when the 5th seal is opened n Christianity is banished all over the world.

[Charlie744]

Thank you and not to move too far from the original topic, would it be safe to say, based on your response, that those who have died NOT in Christ are already suffering in hell or some place? 

Thank you, Charlie 

[Diaste]

14 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you and not to move too far from the original topic, would it be safe to say, based on your response, that those who have died NOT in Christ are already suffering in hell or some place? 

Thank you, Charlie 

The rich man and Lazarus is an example.

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 

This seems to say the opposite.

"11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

This also seems to say something different.

"31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Then there is this.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

I think the story of the rich man and Lazarus is an illustration in contrasts of spiritual truth and not what happens immediately upon passing.

From the other scripture it looks like some will go immediately to be with the Lord and they will receive their inheritance, as in Rev 6, and others will quite obviously wait till the Judgment to find out their ultimate destiny. It's not one or the the other.

[Charlie744]

Great information!!

 I definitely agree with you that the Lazarus parable is not meant to tell us what happens at death... but I do believe it’s purpose is to tell us we can do no more towards our salvation afterwards.. and our fate is permanently sealed... no ones prayers can change things, etc.

The other quotes from Matthew and Revelation offer confusing or conflicting results...

There are also others that I find are quite difficult to refute— two of which is that “the dead no nothing”, and “they have no more ... under the sun” (something like that).

For me, these are clear and unambiguous... why would God tell us the dead know nothing IF, after death, we would experience either horrific pain or tremendous glory?

This reminds me of another reason I am convinced one should never use Revelation to interpret Daniel. I believe we must understand Daniel on its own and study how the words and verses should be interpreted in CONTEXT with their surroundings verses, not the verses in Revelation.

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts and consideration! Charlie 

[Speks]

Hello Charlie.

For me the primary message of this portion of Scripture is to endure patiently through many weaknesses while making sure we abide faithfully in Christ. Our conduct matters because we will all give an account after we leave this earthly body behind. When our body dies we can be sure we have an everlasting place to live. But for now we suffer while we long for the day we will be eternally secure.

In this body we can be filled with courage and hope, even though we are not yet resurrected and literally standing before the Lord. Yes, of course we would rather leave this imperfect body behind and "be at home with the Lord." Whether we are at home in our earthly body, secure in Christ, or we are resurrected and eternally home with Him, it is our desire to always be pleasing to Him.

We are called to good works in Christ. True believers will all "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" (2nd Corinthians 5:10), so that each one may be repaid for what has been done in the body, whether good or bad. We will be held responsible for all we have done. 

As those who abide in Christ, we know that in this unstable body we are secure in Him. We are covered by His righteousness, but our conduct and works will be judged. This is a sobering reminder to walk in the Spirit so we will know wisdom, true revelation, purity, maturity in Christ, Christ-likeness and sound teaching.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Speks

[Charlie744]

Speks, with all sincerity, that really was just about perfect!! I wish I could write like that and I wish I could have said that—- in fact, as of tomorrow, I am going to tell everyone I did say it... Cut and paste is my best method of providing sound and pleasing advice and responses to ... well, just about to everyone! 

So once again, thank you for my next response!

One other thing, if you don’t mind... since I still do not have the appropriate response to this topic, I am going to have to ask you to comment on what you think happens at the time of our death.. 

Looking forward to my next response to this topic, Best wishes, Charlie 

[Speks]

Hello Charlie. 

 

DEATH IN SCRIPTURE

The first thing we can be sure of is after death we face judgement (Hebrews 9:27). On that day Christ has authority to judge: "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life [i.e., those who trusted in Christ, see John 5:24], those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28, 29, NASB); "...there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15, NASB).

At a future time the dead "who are in the tombs" will rise to be judged. The dead rise to judgement from the grave. In Christ we who believe will live again, even though we die and have lain in the grave. Martha's comment to Jesus reflects this teaching: "I know that he [Martha's brother] will rise again in the resurrection on the last day" (John 11:24, NASB).

1st Thessalonians 4:15, 16 tells us that those who have died, all the believers who are "asleep" in Christ, will rise first (from their graves). "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1st Thessalonians 4:17-18 NASB).

Taken together these verses of Scripture indicate that believers who die are raised at Christ's return. They are considered to be asleep (dead) in their graves until that moment. All who are dead in the tombs will hear His voice. They will be resurrected from sleep (death) to life.

What are we aware of after we die and before Christ returns? Can we look to Old Testament texts for insight? "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 9:10, NASB); "When his spirit leaves him, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts and plans perish" (Psalm 146:4, Amplified Bible). 

Many (most?) interpret the text at 2nd Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 to mean that immediately after death we will be with Christ: "absent from the body and... at home with the Lord"; "having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better".

In 2nd Corinthians 12:2-4 we read a unique account where someone (Paul) was caught up to the "third heaven" — "Paradise". We ought not to think of this experience in the context of being dead. Paul writes: "...whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows." 

A singular context for an after-death experience is found in 1st Samuel 28:7-20 where Saul uses a medium to draw up Samuel "out of the earth". "Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?'" (v.15). 

There are other contexts in Scripture where individuals did not die but were taken directly into God's presence. In Genesis 5:24 we are told "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him"; "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God" (Hebrews 11:5 NASB). 

In 2nd Kings 2:11 we read that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." Elijah appeared with Moses to Peter, James and John when Christ led them up a high mountain and was transfigured before them (see Matthew 17:1-13).

In Luke 23:43 Jesus tells the criminal being crucified, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (NASB). Although Jesus' body was removed from the cross and laid in the tomb, this text implies that after dying the crucified criminal was taken that day to where Christ was and did not "sleep" awaiting the resurrection. Does this prove conclusively that when we die we are immediately with the Lord?

If after death we "sleep", our appearing before Christ will seem instant. But whatever our views may be, we know that after death we are forever secure: 

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 

"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, 'Death IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?' The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 

"Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord" (1st Corinthians 15:50-58, NASB).

"I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:54, NASB).

___

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Speks