Are you living in the Spirit or the letter?

[Moby]

One of the greatest hurdles to overcome in Christianity is the urge to focus on the physical rather than the spiritual:

2 Corinthians 3:4-6  And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward:  (5)  not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God;  (6)  who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

In the OT covenant there was a promised land where a physical temple was built but all of that is now spiritual in the NT covenant because Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophets and law and NEVER going back:

Matthew 5:17  Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Acts 7:48  Howbeit the Most High dwelleth not in houses made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Acts 17:24  The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Yes some of the physical Jews have returned to their physical land over there in the Middle East and have every intention of building a physical temple again but that will never change the fact that ONLY those physical Jews who walk by faith in Jesus will become the ONLY temple that matters since 30 AD no matter what country they live and die in:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17  Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?  (17)  If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye.

Every single OT promise to the physical Jew is now a spiritual promise to a spiritual Jew who are both believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree, ONE commonwealth of Israel, ONE habitation of God, ONE temple, and ONE body of Christ:

Romans 2:28-29  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:  (29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 9:25-28  As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.  (26)  And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.  (27)  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

Romans 11:24-26  For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?  (25)  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ephesians 2:11-22  Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands;  (12)  that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  (13)  But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.  (14)  For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,  (15)  having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;  (16)  and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  (17)  and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh:  (18)  for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father.  (19)  So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,  (20)  being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;  (21)  in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;  (22)  in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

No matter which "olivet" discourse we read the same destruction of the OT temple must occur:

Matthew 24:1-2   And Jesus went out from the temple, and was going on his way; and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple.  (2)  But he answered and said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mark 13:1-2  And as he went forth out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Teacher, behold, what manner of stones and what manner of buildings!  (2)  And Jesus said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.

Luke 21:5-6  And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and offerings, he said,  (6)  As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in which there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In all three great commissions of Jesus to His Jewish disciples was to go into ALL the nations starting in Jerusalem and work out unto all the world to create a harvest to the uttermost parts of the earth of believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree, ONE commonwealth of Israel, ONE habitation of God, ONE temple, and ONE body of Christ:

Matthew 28:18-20  And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.  (19)  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:  (20)  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Mark 16:15-18  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.  (16)  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.  (17)  And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;  (18)  they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Luke 24:44-47  And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.  (45)  Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;  (46)  and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day;  (47)  and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

NO where in the entire NT do we see Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, or John promote or even hint at the need for the Jews to return to a physical piece of real estate in the middle east and build another temple for all the  prophesies in the entire bible to occur spiritually in the only spiritual temple that matters to our Father and His Son Jesus in His spiritual city of Jerusalem that will be coming down out of heaven:

Revelation 3:12  He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

As far as your confusion as to these two passages where the tares are gathered first in bundles to be burned; there is no confusion for those with eyes to see:

Matthew 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares were those who were a part of the church but did not make their calling and election sure and had no fruit through the tribulation so therefore became a part of the "vintage of the earth" that will face the wrath of fire on the earth during the last year called the year of our Father's vengeance which is His wrath:

Revelation 14:14-20  And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (15)  And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  (16)  And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.  (17)  And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  (18)  And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  (19)  And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.  (20)  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The true church with 30fold, 60fold, or 100fold fruit will be gathered as resurrected/raptured bodies our Father's barn 45 days into that last year while the tares within the the clusters of the vine of the earth who are fully ripe with sin will be thrown into the great wine press, of the wrath of God that commences with the first trumpet as is clearly proven here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

[WilliamL]

On 10/13/2020 at 5:55 AM, Moby said:

Every single OT promise to the physical Jew is now a spiritual promise to a spiritual Jew who are both believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree, ONE commonwealth of Israel, ONE habitation of God, ONE temple, and ONE body of Christ:

If this were to be true, then it would make a plethora of OT prophecies to be false, as well as personal promises of God to Abraham and to his descendants about the Land of Israel.

This is the doctrine of Origen and other founders of Catholic doctrine.

Edited October 14, 2020 by WilliamL
typo

[Moby]

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

If this were to be true, then it would make a plethora of OT prophecies to be false, as well as personal promises of God to Abraham and to his descendants about the Land of Israel.

This is the doctrine of Origen and other founders of Catholic doctrine.

Jesus taught the Jews that they and by extension us as believers are the land that must produce the fruit:

Matthew 13:23  And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Paul also called us as believers the land:

Hebrews 6:4-9  For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,  (5)  and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,  (6)  and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.  (7)  For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God:  (8)  but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.  (9)  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/03/19/parable-of-the-sower/

[The Light]

On 10/13/2020 at 6:55 AM, Moby said:

One of the greatest hurdles to overcome in Christianity is the urge to focus on the physical rather than the spiritual:

2 Corinthians 3:4-6  And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward:  (5)  not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God;  (6)  who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

In the OT covenant there was a promised land where a physical temple was built but all of that is now spiritual in the NT covenant because Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophets and law and NEVER going back:

Matthew 5:17  Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Acts 7:48  Howbeit the Most High dwelleth not in houses made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Acts 17:24  The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Yes some of the physical Jews have returned to their physical land over there in the Middle East and have every intention of building a physical temple again but that will never change the fact that ONLY those physical Jews who walk by faith in Jesus will become the ONLY temple that matters since 30 AD no matter what country they live and die in:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17  Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?  (17)  If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye.

Every single OT promise to the physical Jew is now a spiritual promise to a spiritual Jew who are both believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree, ONE commonwealth of Israel, ONE habitation of God, ONE temple, and ONE body of Christ:

Romans 2:28-29  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:  (29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 9:25-28  As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.  (26)  And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.  (27)  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

Romans 11:24-26  For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?  (25)  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ephesians 2:11-22  Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands;  (12)  that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  (13)  But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.  (14)  For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,  (15)  having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;  (16)  and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  (17)  and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh:  (18)  for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father.  (19)  So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,  (20)  being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;  (21)  in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;  (22)  in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

No matter which "olivet" discourse we read the same destruction of the OT temple must occur:

Matthew 24:1-2   And Jesus went out from the temple, and was going on his way; and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple.  (2)  But he answered and said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mark 13:1-2  And as he went forth out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Teacher, behold, what manner of stones and what manner of buildings!  (2)  And Jesus said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.

Luke 21:5-6  And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and offerings, he said,  (6)  As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in which there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In all three great commissions of Jesus to His Jewish disciples was to go into ALL the nations starting in Jerusalem and work out unto all the world to create a harvest to the uttermost parts of the earth of believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree, ONE commonwealth of Israel, ONE habitation of God, ONE temple, and ONE body of Christ:

Matthew 28:18-20  And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.  (19)  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:  (20)  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Mark 16:15-18  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.  (16)  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.  (17)  And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;  (18)  they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Luke 24:44-47  And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.  (45)  Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;  (46)  and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day;  (47)  and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

NO where in the entire NT do we see Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, or John promote or even hint at the need for the Jews to return to a physical piece of real estate in the middle east and build another temple for all the  prophesies in the entire bible to occur spiritually in the only spiritual temple that matters to our Father and His Son Jesus in His spiritual city of Jerusalem that will be coming down out of heaven:

Revelation 3:12  He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

As far as your confusion as to these two passages where the tares are gathered first in bundles to be burned; there is no confusion for those with eyes to see:

Matthew 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares were those who were a part of the church but did not make their calling and election sure and had no fruit through the tribulation so therefore became a part of the "vintage of the earth" that will face the wrath of fire on the earth during the last year called the year of our Father's vengeance which is His wrath:

Revelation 14:14-20  And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (15)  And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  (16)  And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.  (17)  And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  (18)  And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  (19)  And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.  (20)  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The true church with 30fold, 60fold, or 100fold fruit will be gathered as resurrected/raptured bodies our Father's barn 45 days into that last year while the tares within the the clusters of the vine of the earth who are fully ripe with sin will be thrown into the great wine press, of the wrath of God that commences with the first trumpet as is clearly proven here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

Brother, this is just a bunch of baloney. You claim that only of small remnant of Jews are saved. That is not what the Word says. The Word says that only a remnant of the Jews, who are numbered as the sand of sea, WILL RETURN TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

Isaiah 10

²² For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Everyone born of a Jewish woman is a Jew, so there is a vast number of Jews. And the Lord says that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that many of their eyes will be opened. The harvest of the Jews is going to a huge number and will surpass the fullness of the Gentiles.

Rom 11

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

You can dance around the truth and fool yourself all you want. That will not change the FACT that God will keep His promise to His CHOSEN PEOPLE.

The Church will be raptured pretrib and then God will turn His attention to His people and the 70th week of Daniel will see an awesome harvest of the Jews. It will be the second harvest of the fig tree.

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by The Light

[Moby]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Brother, this is just a bunch of baloney. You claim that only of small remnant of Jews are saved. That is not what the Word says. The Word says that only a remnant of the Jews, who are numbered as the sand of sea, WILL RETURN TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

Isaiah 10

²² For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Everyone born of a Jewish woman is a Jew, so there is a vast number of Jews. And the Lord says that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that many of their eyes will be opened. The harvest of the Jews is going to a huge number and will surpass the fullness of the Gentiles.

Rom 11

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

You can dance around the truth and fool yourself all you want. That will not change the FACT that God will keep His promise to His CHOSEN PEOPLE.

The Church will be raptured pretrib and then God will turn His attention to His people and the 70th week of Daniel will see an awesome harvest of the Jews. It will be the second harvest of the fig tree.

I am going to accept Paul's interpretation of Isaiah 10:22-23 as he has a much better understanding than most Christians today:

Isaiah 10:22-23  For though thy people, Israel, be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them shall return: a destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.  (23)  For a full end, and that determined, will the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, make in the midst of all the earth.

Paul clearly understood that when the Holy Spirit had Isaiah use the Hebrew word "shuwb" that meant there was going to be a remnant of physical Jews who would "return" to the Lord and be saved as he clearly proved in the NT when he quoted Isaiah:

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

Paul clearly proved that our Father chose us before the foundation of the world when writing to the predominantly Gentile church in Ephesus:

Ephesians 1:3-13  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:  (4)  even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:  (5)  having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,  (6)  to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: (7) in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,  (8)  which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,  (9)  making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him  (10)  unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,  (11)  in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;  (12)  to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:  (13)  in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,--in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Paul used the word "us" and "we" all through his writings because he clearly knew the ONE olive tree would be made up of a remnant of believing Gentiles along with a remnant of believing Jews as the mystery of God's will being completed by the end as all Israel:

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

[The Light]

15 hours ago, Moby said:

I am going to accept Paul's interpretation of Isaiah 10:22-23 as he has a much better understanding than most Christians today:

Than "most" Christians?

Let's see what else Paul has to say

Rom 11

⁵ Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

⁶ And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

⁷ What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

⁸ (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

⁹ And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

¹⁰ Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

There was a remnant in Paul's time, in addition to the further remnant will return to the land of Israel. And even more, there will be a great harvest as proven by not only what Paul says, but what John says. There will be a 144,000 first fruits that guarantee a harvest of the twelve tribes across the earth. This truth seems to trouble you greatly. No matter what you think and what you have been taught, God is going to keep His promise to His CHOSEN PEOPLE. And further, we know that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

 

15 hours ago, Moby said:

 

Isaiah 10:22-23  For though thy people, Israel, be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them shall return: a destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.  (23)  For a full end, and that determined, will the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, make in the midst of all the earth.

Paul clearly understood that when the Holy Spirit had Isaiah use the Hebrew word "shuwb" that meant there was going to be a remnant of physical Jews who would "return" to the Lord and be saved as he clearly proved in the NT when he quoted Isaiah:

 

Which is exactly what I said. A remnant will physically return to the land, though there numbers worldwide will be like the sand of the sea. 1/3 of this remnant will be saved when the deliverer returns.

15 hours ago, Moby said:

 

Paul clearly proved that our Father chose us before the foundation of the world when writing to the predominantly Gentile church in Ephesus:

Again, you post a truth that has nothing to do with supporting the argument at hand. We are talking about the Jews and the great number of them that will be saved.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

15 hours ago, Moby said:

 

Paul used the word "us" and "we" all through his writings because he clearly knew the ONE olive tree would be made up of a remnant of believing Gentiles along with a remnant of believing Jews as the mystery of God's will being completed by the end as all Israel:

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

A person is considered a Jew if their mother is a Jew. Hence, the number of Jews is like the sand of the sea. They are all around you and you don't even know it. However, God knows.

When the abomination of desolation is set up and 1/3 of the Jews in the nation of Israel flee to their place of protection, the dragon will be wroth with the woman as he cannot get to her. He will go after the woman's seed. That is the 12 tribes across the earth. Their blindness will be removed as Paul says and the harvest will be great.

Rev 12

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The harvest of the Jews will be great, just as Paul proclaims.

Rom 11

²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

God will keep His word to his people.

[Moby]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Than "most" Christians?

Let's see what else Paul has to say

Rom 11

⁵ Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

⁶ And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

⁷ What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

⁸ (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

⁹ And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

¹⁰ Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

There was a remnant in Paul's time, in addition to the further remnant will return to the land of Israel. And even more, there will be a great harvest as proven by not only what Paul says, but what John says. There will be a 144,000 first fruits that guarantee a harvest of the twelve tribes across the earth. This truth seems to trouble you greatly. No matter what you think and what you have been taught, God is going to keep His promise to His CHOSEN PEOPLE. And further, we know that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Which is exactly what I said. A remnant will physically return to the land, though there numbers worldwide will be like the sand of the sea. 1/3 of this remnant will be saved when the deliverer returns.

Again, you post a truth that has nothing to do with supporting the argument at hand. We are talking about the Jews and the great number of them that will be saved.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

A person is considered a Jew if their mother is a Jew. Hence, the number of Jews is like the sand of the sea. They are all around you and you don't even know it. However, God knows.

When the abomination of desolation is set up and 1/3 of the Jews in the nation of Israel flee to their place of protection, the dragon will be wroth with the woman as he cannot get to her. He will go after the woman's seed. That is the 12 tribes across the earth. Their blindness will be removed as Paul says and the harvest will be great.

Rev 12

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The harvest of the Jews will be great, just as Paul proclaims.

Rom 11

²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

God will keep His word to his people.

The word "fulness" has absolutely nothing to do with the salvation of every physical Jew in the land of Israel at the end of the 7 years of tribulation as the Holy Spirit  clearly states through Paul here for the remnant saved at the end of the tribulation will complete the ONE olive tree:

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

The word "fulness" as used throughout the NT clearly means to complete:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4138&t=KJV

Your continued assertion for some secret rapture of the church before the 7 years of tribulation is a complete bogus lie! Jesus proves in all three olivet discourses that  there is only ONE resurrection/rapture of the "elect" who are the ONE church, ONE race, ONE generation, ONE nation, and ONE people called all Israel:

1 Peter 2:9  But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Matthew 24:29-31  But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  (30)  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  (31)  And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,  (25)  and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.  (26)  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.  (27)  And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28  And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows;  (26)  men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.  (27)  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.  (28)  But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Moby said:

The word "fulness" has absolutely nothing to do with the salvation of every physical Jew in the land of Israel at the end of the 7 years of tribulation as the Holy Spirit  clearly states through Paul here for the remnant saved at the end of the tribulation will complete the ONE olive tree:

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

This is another absolutely false statement. And you know it is false, so why would you post it. When the 70th week of Daniel is over that is not when Jesus returns with His armies and you know that. There is yet the wrath of God to come. It is after this wrath that Jesus returns and saves the remnant. We also know that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. There will be a great harvest of the 12 tribes at this time as the 144,000 first fruits guarantee this great  harvest.

2 hours ago, Moby said:

The word "fulness" as used throughout the NT clearly means to complete:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4138&t=KJV

 

If you would read what it says you would see that there are many definitions given besides completeness. We can tell that what you contend is incorrect as it would make no sense. How could the Jews fullness be MORE COMPLETE than the Gentiles? As usual you contention has no legs to stand on.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Maybe you should take to heart the clear teaching of Paul. There will be a great harvest of the Jews.

Rom 11

²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

2 hours ago, Moby said:

 

Your continued assertion for some secret rapture of the church before the 7 years of tribulation is a complete bogus lie!

The scripture clearly says that there will be a "secret rapture". The fact that you are unable to identify this truth does not change the truth.

 

2 hours ago, Moby said:

 

Jesus proves in all three olivet discourses that  there is only ONE resurrection/rapture of the "elect" who are the ONE church, ONE race, ONE generation, ONE nation, and ONE people called all Israel:

 

The fact that you don't understand the gathering from heaven and earth does not change the fact that there will be a gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13:24-27  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,  (25)  and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.  (26)  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.  (27)  And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

There is a reason that Jacob worked 7 more years for Rachael, his true love. This happened AFTER the marriage supper with his marriage to Leah.

[Moby]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

This is another absolutely false statement. And you know it is false, so why would you post it. When the 70th week of Daniel is over that is not when Jesus returns with His armies and you know that. There is yet the wrath of God to come. It is after this wrath that Jesus returns and saves the remnant. We also know that Jesus returns at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. There will be a great harvest of the 12 tribes at this time as the 144,000 first fruits guarantee this great  harvest.

If you would read what it says you would see that there are many definitions given besides completeness. We can tell that what you contend is incorrect as it would make no sense. How could the Jews fullness be MORE COMPLETE than the Gentiles? As usual you contention has no legs to stand on.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Maybe you should take to heart the clear teaching of Paul. There will be a great harvest of the Jews.

Rom 11

²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

The scripture clearly says that there will be a "secret rapture". The fact that you are unable to identify this truth does not change the truth.

 

The fact that you don't understand the gathering from heaven and earth does not change the fact that there will be a gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13:24-27  But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,  (25)  and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.  (26)  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.  (27)  And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

There is a reason that Jacob worked 7 more years for Rachael, his true love. This happened AFTER the marriage supper with his marriage to Leah.

No where did I say that Jesus returns with His armies at the end of the 70th week. Yes the year of wrath commences immediately after the 7 years of tribulation and then at the end of that year Jesus returns with His armies. A remnant of physical Jews are saved during the last half of the seven years of tribulation. That is when they will make up the fulness of the ONE olive tree made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE body of Christ called "all Israel":

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Sorry bro but no where in the scriptures is there even a hint of a "secret rapture" but the fact that every eye of all the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds proves there is NO secret rapture:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

 

[The Light]

23 hours ago, Moby said:

No where did I say that Jesus returns with His armies at the end of the 70th week.

My apologies brother. I thought you knew more than you do. When Jesus returns with His armies, after the wrath of God, that is when He will save the remnant. The remnant are the 1/3 Jews that flee to the protected place and go through the wrath of God.

Rom 11

²⁶ And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

²⁷ For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

That is when ALL OF ISRAEL will be saved. The remnant will be all of Israel as the great harvest of the Jews will occur before the wrath of God. Then 2/3 of those in the nation of Israel that don't flee are killed. The 1/3 will be ALL OF ISRAEL

 

23 hours ago, Moby said:

 

Yes the year of wrath commences immediately after the 7 years of tribulation and then at the end of that year Jesus returns with His armies. A remnant of physical Jews are saved during the last half of the seven years of tribulation.

It is not the remnant that is saved before the wrath of God. It is a great harvest of the Jews from the earth as proven by the 144,000 first fruits. God will keep His promise to His CHOSEN PEOPLE. How much more their fullness. How much more shall the natural branches be grafted into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE.

ROM 11

²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

23 hours ago, Moby said:

 

That is when they will make up the fulness of the ONE olive tree made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE body of Christ called "all Israel":

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Church will be raptured pre 70th week. The 70th week is the 1st 6 seals. That is why you see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. You can talk olive tree all you want, but you lack understanding as to the timing of when the natural branches are regrafted into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE.

The harvest of the Jews at the 6th seal will be massive and greater than the fullness of the Gentiles. Go to your elders and tell them what they are teaching is in error.

 

23 hours ago, Moby said:

 

Sorry bro but no where in the scriptures is there even a hint of a "secret rapture" but the fact that every eye of all the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds proves there is NO secret rapture:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

 

 

Yes, every eye will see Him when He comes in the clouds at the 6th seal, which is the coming of Jesus at the end of Rev 14, which is the coming of Jesus in Matt 24. You seem to think that He is only coming once. We can tell He comes a lightning more than once.

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

²³ And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

He comes as lightning more than once as we can tell in Luke 17. One time He will come in the secret rapture of the Church and one time He will come and every eye will see Him.

As for the secret rapture in scripture. Sure it's there.

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹¹ For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

¹² The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

¹³ The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹⁴ O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

So the early summer secret rapture is in the Word of God. Now run back to your elders and tell them what they are teaching is false. Tell them there is going to be a massive harvest of the Jews across the earth during the 70th week of Daniel, just as the Word of God declares.