The Bible and the Ancient Earth

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Source: Ancient Earth

 

Quote

 

A Tiny Rock Crystal that Rocked the Scientific Establishment

The great thing about scientific "theories" is the fact that they must be abandoned or modified when a scientific "observation" falsifies a prevailing theory. This is called application of the "Scientific Method" and science is replete with instances where existing theories have been thrown onto the trash heap of discarded notions.

That is exactly what happened when, in 2002, a startling discovery was made that is causing scientists to critically rethink their theories. It was a tiny Zircon crystal inclusion, found in a rock formation in the Jack Hills of Australia. The tiny crystal, hardly as wide as a human hair, presented a Uranium/Lead ratio that dates the formation of the Zircon crystal to about 4.38 billion years ago.

That, in itself, was a stunning enough discovery, but what they learned next rendered a fatal blow to the prevailing theory of Earth's formation. Specifically, a subsequent chemical analysis of that same crystal revealed that it formed 4.38 billion years ago, in LIQUID WATER.

In the previous Bible passage from Job, we are told that liquid water was present from the very beginning of Earth's creation. Both the zircon crystal and the Bible are agreed on this truth. This means the early Earth was not the hellish molten planet that theorists had long presumed. It also destroys the scientific theory that water later came to the Earth from comets.

The Bible is not a science book, but it can be trusted to be scientifically accurate when it speaks of things concerning science.  In this case, the Bible was ahead of the scientists concerning the truth of the matter. What we have is a passage of Scripture, originally written less than about three-thousand years ago and translated into an English-language Bible just over 400 years ago, well before the infancy of the modern geologic sciences, that reveals truth that scientists are only now discovering. This is called 'Progressive Revelation' and is found in many places in the Bible.

The Spirit also reveals through the Scriptures that a significant event took place on the Earth somewhere back in in Earth's deep-time that profoundly affected the destiny of many of those ancient inhabitants and set in motion both physical and spiritual processes that would change the entire course of created nature. We will discuss this matter in the next chapter.

 

Recently, the geology of the Earth has taken a radical change in understanding.  There's been a drilling  campaign going on from the 1970s.  I provide the following link for what it's worth:

Source: Super Deep Holes

[Mantis]

End times locust will probably come from these holes haha

[teddyv]

On 10/24/2020 at 6:40 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Source: Ancient Earth

 

Recently, the geology of the Earth has taken a radical change in understanding.  There's been a drilling  campaign going on from the 1970s.  I provide the following link for what it's worth:

Source: Super Deep Holes

What does the deep drilling article have to do with the quoted section?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, teddyv said:

What does the deep drilling article have to do with the quoted section?

The drilling found water deeper than it should be.  In my mind, it gives scientific support for the origin of water to cause Noah's Flood from within the earth.  This is what the Bible says.  I was prepared to believe in a regional flood, now I need to think about it more.  I wondered where the water went,  now I have several things to consider.

There's flood stories from around the world in different time periods some predate Noah.  Do these describe different floods?  Could the same water fountains be used at different times from inside the earth?  Earth means dirt or ground.  It is not referring to planet Earth or is it?

[teddyv]

8 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The drilling found water deeper than it should be.  In my mind, it gives scientific support for the origin of water to cause Noah's Flood from within the earth.  This is what the Bible says.  I was prepared to believe in a regional flood, now I need to think about it more.  I wondered where the water went,  now I have several things to consider.

There's flood stories from around the world in different time periods some predate Noah.  Do these describe different floods?  Could the same water fountains be used at different times from inside the earth?  Earth means dirt or ground.  It is not referring to planet Earth or is it?

I tried to source the bit you quoted in the OP but did not find an exact rendering of that (yet). I found a BBC article discussing the same issue, but there is not this implication of anything being formed in water. The BBC article, in it's concluding paragraph, does state:

Quote

In doing so, their study suggests strongly a continental crust was present on Earth about 100 million years after the planet formed. And by implication, it tells us that if temperatures were low enough, it could have perhaps even sustained liquid water at its surface.

I have not checked out everything of course. I am wondering if there is confusion over the "formed in water" bit, because there is mention of the zircons being moved around by rivers, although your original quote does say a chemical analysis was done. 

With respect to the deep drilling, the only mention of water was in this paragraph:

Quote

“When the Russians started to drill they claimed they had found free water – and that was simply not believed by most scientists. There used to be common understanding among Western scientists that the crust was so dense 5km down that water could not permeate through it.”

That still seems to be a claim, and not yet verified by additional work. Even so, the potential presence of some free water in the crust does not necessarily imply the requisite amount of water required for the Great Flood. Running on memory, water can be present in rocks, but it is typically locked up in the crystals, not free flowing via permeability or porosity.  There has also been some indications of water-rich areas within the mantle, but that too is not free water. It's been a while since I read about that so I'm not sure if anything new has been discovered.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, teddyv said:

I tried to source the bit you quoted in the OP but did not find an exact rendering of that (yet). I found a BBC article discussing the same issue, but there is not this implication of anything being formed in water. The BBC article, in it's concluding paragraph, does state:

I have not checked out everything of course. I am wondering if there is confusion over the "formed in water" bit, because there is mention of the zircons being moved around by rivers, although your original quote does say a chemical analysis was done. 

I was trying to find a written article to back up the TV show I saw on the Discovery Channel.  The TV Show talked about how the Russians stopped digging when they hit water.  At the time, this was the deepest hole on Earth.  As an Old Earth Creationist, the Biblical passage that talks about the fountains of the deep.  So if one believes the Biblical account of Noah's Flood, not only rain caused the flood but waters under the earth were also needed and detailed by the writer of Genesis:

Genesis 8:2 - The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
Genesis 8:3 - And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

5 hours ago, teddyv said:

With respect to the deep drilling, the only mention of water was in this paragraph:

That still seems to be a claim, and not yet verified by additional work. Even so, the potential presence of some free water in the crust does not necessarily imply the requisite amount of water required for the Great Flood. Running on memory, water can be present in rocks, but it is typically locked up in the crystals, not free flowing via permeability or porosity.  There has also been some indications of water-rich areas within the mantle, but that too is not free water. It's been a while since I read about that so I'm not sure if anything new has been discovered.

Source: The Bible, Genesis and Geology

Now I'm not a geologist, just a rock hound and a degreed engineer.  One of the problems I've always had with Noah's Flood was: where did the water go?  This is one explanation.  I just can't put all the information I pick up in one post.  You're going to have to do some research on your own, if you're that interested.

[teddyv]

17 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I was trying to find a written article to back up the TV show I saw on the Discovery Channel.  The TV Show talked about how the Russians stopped digging when they hit water.  At the time, this was the deepest hole on Earth.  As an Old Earth Creationist, the Biblical passage that talks about the fountains of the deep.  So if one believes the Biblical account of Noah's Flood, not only rain caused the flood but waters under the earth were also needed and detailed by the writer of Genesis:

Genesis 8:2 - The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
Genesis 8:3 - And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

Source: The Bible, Genesis and Geology

Now I'm not a geologist, just a rock hound and a degreed engineer.  One of the problems I've always had with Noah's Flood was: where did the water go?  This is one explanation.  I just can't put all the information I pick up in one post.  You're going to have to do some research on your own, if you're that interested.

That's fine. The Russian claim of hitting water though appears to still have been only a claim. It could be right - there is still lots of things we don't know about the earth and there are lots of exceptions to the usual rules.

As to the writer of Genesis, I think we have to bear in mind the cosmology of the time wherein the earth (dry land) was constructed on the pillars which were set into the waters of the deep (or something like that). That's why I look at the Flood narrative largely as something closer to an ancient legend based on a large, but regional scale flood. The Flood narrative is probably far more about theology and God's role in humanity than about geology. People have always lived near rivers and oceans so floods would have been a fairly common experience for ancient peoples (and of course to this day as well). 

The geological record certainly does not (yet) demonstrate a clear global inundation of the earth. Oceans have risen at times and then receded again. Some very large regional floods have undoubtedly occurred over time, most recently associated with the waning days of the Ice Age. As for the fountains of the deep recorded geologically, as they "burst forth", I'm not really aware of what to expect in this regard. Some have postulated that this caused the crustal plate breakup but there are thermodynamic concerns around that. Even a more limited scale bursting should create abundant tell-tale breccias around the world. And we just don't see that. Genetically, there should be a traceable bottleneck of human history, but that does not appear to be noted for an event at that time (according to the Ussher timeline).

So where did the water go? Like any flood, back into the ground over time, or down the rivers to the oceans.

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, teddyv said:

That's fine. The Russian claim of hitting water though appears to still have been only a claim. It could be right - there is still lots of things we don't know about the earth and there are lots of exceptions to the usual rules.

As to the writer of Genesis, I think we have to bear in mind the cosmology of the time wherein the earth (dry land) was constructed on the pillars which were set into the waters of the deep (or something like that). That's why I look at the Flood narrative largely as something closer to an ancient legend based on a large, but regional scale flood. The Flood narrative is probably far more about theology and God's role in humanity than about geology. People have always lived near rivers and oceans so floods would have been a fairly common experience for ancient peoples (and of course to this day as well). 

Moses explained creation as best he could under God's inspiration.  I have embraced the large regional flood idea for a decade or more.  I'm not married to the idea but it fits.  Could there be more than one regional flood?  I am certainly open to the idea since almost every old civilization has a flood story.

3 hours ago, teddyv said:

The geological record certainly does not (yet) demonstrate a clear global inundation of the earth. Oceans have risen at times and then receded again. Some very large regional floods have undoubtedly occurred over time, most recently associated with the waning days of the Ice Age. As for the fountains of the deep recorded geologically, as they "burst forth", I'm not really aware of what to expect in this regard. Some have postulated that this caused the crustal plate breakup but there are thermodynamic concerns around that. Even a more limited scale bursting should create abundant tell-tale breccias around the world. And we just don't see that. Genetically, there should be a traceable bottleneck of human history, but that does not appear to be noted for an event at that time (according to the Ussher timeline).

So where did the water go? Like any flood, back into the ground over time, or down the rivers to the oceans.

A global flood does not seem to be possible without other, unrecorded miracles taking place.  There's nowhere for all the water to go.  If there's more water underground than scientifically thought, and Noah's Flood was a large regional flood, this would reconcile science with Genesis.

[teddyv]

24 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Moses explained creation as best he could under God's inspiration.  I have embraced the large regional flood idea for a decade or more.  I'm not married to the idea but it fits.  Could there be more than one regional flood?  I am certainly open to the idea since almost every old civilization has a flood story.

A global flood does not seem to be possible without other, unrecorded miracles taking place.  There's nowhere for all the water to go.  If there's more water underground than scientifically thought, and Noah's Flood was a large regional flood, this would reconcile science with Genesis.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I personally don't even think its necessary to try and reconcile scientific discovery with Genesis because that's not what is being addressed.

[Tristen]

On 10/26/2020 at 5:01 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The drilling found water deeper than it should be.  In my mind, it gives scientific support for the origin of water to cause Noah's Flood from within the earth.  This is what the Bible says.  I was prepared to believe in a regional flood, now I need to think about it more.  I wondered where the water went,  now I have several things to consider.

There's flood stories from around the world in different time periods some predate Noah.  Do these describe different floods?  Could the same water fountains be used at different times from inside the earth?  Earth means dirt or ground.  It is not referring to planet Earth or is it?

Hi SavedOne,

You may be aware that I'm a Biblical creationist (or what some might call a young earth creationist). I thought I might respond to some of your comments from that perspective. I hope you don't mind me chiming in.

 

You said, “The drilling found water deeper than it should be”

Now I know I'm being a bit persnickety here – but I wonder where you get your analysis of how deep the water “should be”? It's only secular models that are surprised to find deep water.

 

“In my mind, it gives scientific support for the origin of water to cause Noah's Flood from within the earth”

I assume you mean alongside the rain – i.e. the “fountains of the great deep” along with the “windows of heaven” (Genesis 7:11).

Scientists have long understood that there is at least ten times the amount of surface ocean water stored in deep rocks.

See:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15520974-900-deep-waters/ (1997)

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2119475-planet-earth-makes-its-own-water-from-scratch-deep-in-the-mantle/ (2017)

In the following article, the researcher states, “If it wasn’t down there, we would all be submerged” (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23231014-700-deepest-water-found-1000km-down-a-third-of-way-to-earths-core/ -2016).

 

“This is what the Bible says”

Yes.

 

“I was prepared to believe in a regional flood, now I need to think about it more”

Agreed that you “need to think about it more” - because “a regional flood” is not “what the Bible says”.

Genesis 7:19 - And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered

Genesis 9:11 - Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth

Yet we have had many, many “regional” floods since the time of God's promise (which is to say that “a regional flood” is difficult to defend Biblically).

 

“I wondered where the water went, now I have several things to consider” … “One of the problems I've always had with Noah's Flood was: where did the water go?”

The amount of water has never been a problem for the Biblical model of a global flood.

The following image is a hypsographic curve that summarises the average land elevation vs water depth currently found across the earth's surface (found at: http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Oc-Po/Ocean-Floor-Bathymetry.html ).

If you were to average out the land mass, the land would clearly be submerged under several kilometres of water. So the global flood model does not need any more water, it just needs to assume that the geological structure of the surface was different before the flood – which is not such a stretch; given the massive hydrological forces that would be expected to reshape the surface during a global flood. It is possible that fast running water carved out deep ocean trenches for the flood waters to drain into.

 

“There's flood stories from around the world in different time periods some predate Noah”

Do they really “predate Noah”?

 

“Do these describe different floods?”

It seems more likely to me that they reflect the same event – especially given some of the similarities between some of the narratives. The differences are probably due to a type of 'Chinese whispers' across successive generations (whereas Moses got his information from God).

It furthermore seems more likely to me that the so-called 'age' calculations for civilisations that supposedly “predate Noah” are also incorrect (and that the Biblical time frames are correct).