Lordship salvation

[Don19]

On 11/1/2020 at 8:08 PM, Michael37 said:

Thanks for posting this video, Debp. I think it is a helpful exhortation. The Lordship of Christ is a personal matter for the individual to identify with. I have shared many times about how the Lord appeared to me and caused me to understand that I was denying Him by the way I was living. Paul wrote to Titus about this very issue.

Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

As a corollary to the subject under  discussion, I believe the Lordship of Christ describes my personal relationship with Him, and the Headship of Christ describes His corporate relationship with the body of Christ.   

Not sure whether this is your intention in citing Titus 1:16, but it is actually teaching the opposite of how a legalist would read it! A look at the preceding verse Titus 1:15 clears that up.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. (Titus 1:15)

To deny Christ with your works, then, is basically to profess to have Christ as your Savior and yet have a defiled conscience. Because Christ has purged our conscience of sins - Heb 10:2. There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1). Therefore, Christ is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30) - He is our good works!

Again, not sure if that's how you're reading that verse, but given the context of the thread, I though I'd point this out.

 

On 11/1/2020 at 7:19 PM, David1701 said:

It's clear that Andrew Farley doesn't know what Lordship Salvation is.  It's nothing to do with "maybe you didn't repent enough" or "maybe you didn't commit enough".  It is to do with the fact that, when Jesus saves you, he changes your heart and you now want to obey him.  It's also to do with the fact that you can't split the Lord into two pieces (Lord and Saviour).  Jesus is both your Lord and Saviour, or he is neither.

The evidence that Jesus really is your Saviour, is that you are living with him as your Lord.  This is not sinless perfection, it is simply biblical Christianity.  Yes, we all still sin sometimes; but, the general tenor of a born-again Christian's life is righteousness.

Lordship Salvation is really just the biblical antidote to "Easy Believism", in which you can, allegedly, say a "sinner's prayer", then show no fruit, yet still claim to have been saved.

The "evidence" of a genuine profession, as you are laying it out here, is totally carnal and of the law. This righteousness in the flesh is indistinguishable from that of the Pharisees. No amount of killing sin in the flesh will provide true assurance of salvation. That's what all religions of the world do - they fight sin in the flesh, strive to live righteous lives. But God's standard is perfection, so only the righteousness which is of faith will work. Our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees. Therefore, Christ must be your righteousness and your good works; a "general tenor" of righteousness in the flesh is not going to cut it, because all of man's righteousness is unrighteousness with God.

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, Don19 said:

Not sure whether this is your intention in citing Titus 1:16, but it is actually teaching the opposite of how a legalist would read it! A look at the preceding verse Titus 1:15 clears that up.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. (Titus 1:15)

To deny Christ with your works, then, is basically to profess to have Christ as your Savior and yet have a defiled conscience. Because Christ has purged our conscience of sins - Heb 10:2. There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1). Therefore, Christ is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30) - He is our good works!

Again, not sure if that's how you're reading that verse, but given the context of the thread, I though I'd point this out.

Hi Don. Paul was not happy with the Cretans and instructed Titus to rebuke them sharply.  Yes, their minds and consciences were defiled or else they would not be living in ways that denied Christ, which is the subject under discussion. here, hence my reference. If Christ is not Lord in a person's life they will not be sound in the faith, which is good reason to rebuke them. But an overemphasis on what constitutes good works and what doesn't has led to heavy shepherding and burdensome yokes in some quarters. Derek Prince confessed and repented of such overbearing aspects in his ministry when he became aware of it.  

Tit 1:13-14  This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,  (14)  not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Don19 said:

Not sure whether this is your intention in citing Titus 1:16, but it is actually teaching the opposite of how a legalist would read it! A look at the preceding verse Titus 1:15 clears that up.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. (Titus 1:15)

To deny Christ with your works, then, is basically to profess to have Christ as your Savior and yet have a defiled conscience. Because Christ has purged our conscience of sins - Heb 10:2. There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1). Therefore, Christ is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30) - He is our good works!

Again, not sure if that's how you're reading that verse, but given the context of the thread, I though I'd point this out.

 

The "evidence" of a genuine profession, as you are laying it out here, is totally carnal and of the law. This righteousness in the flesh is indistinguishable from that of the Pharisees. No amount of killing sin in the flesh will provide true assurance of salvation. That's what all religions of the world do - they fight sin in the flesh, strive to live righteous lives. But God's standard is perfection, so only the righteousness which is of faith will work. Our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees. Therefore, Christ must be your righteousness and your good works; a "general tenor" of righteousness in the flesh is not going to cut it, because all of man's righteousness is unrighteousness with God.

Who said anything about a fleshly righteousness?  I certainly did not!

Of course Christ is our righteousness; but that has a result in the lives of those who have been born of God.  The result is fruit of the Holy Spirit, which is evidence that you have been born again.  People can claim to be born again until the cows come home; but, by their fruit you will know them.

If someone claims to be born again, but lives a life just like the world, then what change has God wrought in him?  None at all!  This means that his profession is just the clanging noise of an empty vessel.

[Don19]

5 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Who said anything about a fleshly righteousness?  I certainly did not!

A man can profess Christianity and undergo an external change in his life; but without being born again, such righteousness is fleshy. Same thing for someone who converted to any religion, like Islam or Catholicism.

 

5 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Of course Christ is our righteousness; but that has a result in the lives of those who have been born of God.

It depends. You're still looking at things after the flesh. There might be no drastic change in the flesh, especially if someone doesn't live an exceptionally wicked lifestyle before coming to Christ.

 

5 minutes ago, David1701 said:

The result is fruit of the Holy Spirit, which is evidence that you have been born again.  People can claim to be born again until the cows come home; but, by their fruit you will know them.

By their fruit you will know them - by their words. Read what Jesus said about fruit in Matthew 12. Fruit is words in Matthew 7. You can't know if someone's a Christian by righteousness that's after the flesh. If that were so, then the Pharisees were truly righteous. Some of the people who do the best deeds aren't Christian at all. Papists do lots of works of charity and other things that give an appearance of Christian piety, which is really just phony because they have not been born again.

 

5 minutes ago, David1701 said:

If someone claims to be born again, but lives a life just like the world, then what change has God wrought in him?  None at all!  This means that his profession is just the clanging noise of an empty vessel.

The change is Christ's righteousness is imputed to him, if indeed he's received the Spirit of promise. In the flesh, we continue to sin. Lordship salvation is hypocrisy, because it is judging other people for their sins, when lordship salvationists themselves have not stopped sinning.

[David1701]

18 hours ago, Don19 said:

A man can profess Christianity and undergo an external change in his life; but without being born again, such righteousness is fleshy. Same thing for someone who converted to any religion, like Islam or Catholicism.

 

It depends. You're still looking at things after the flesh. There might be no drastic change in the flesh, especially if someone doesn't live an exceptionally wicked lifestyle before coming to Christ.

 

By their fruit you will know them - by their words. Read what Jesus said about fruit in Matthew 12. Fruit is words in Matthew 7. You can't know if someone's a Christian by righteousness that's after the flesh. If that were so, then the Pharisees were truly righteous. Some of the people who do the best deeds aren't Christian at all. Papists do lots of works of charity and other things that give an appearance of Christian piety, which is really just phony because they have not been born again.

 

The change is Christ's righteousness is imputed to him, if indeed he's received the Spirit of promise. In the flesh, we continue to sin. Lordship salvation is hypocrisy, because it is judging other people for their sins, when lordship salvationists themselves have not stopped sinning.

This is mostly nonsense, so I won't bother giving a detailed reply; but it is important to note that the change in someone's life is not imputed righteousness (that is a change in our standing before God, not in our life).

Matt. 7:12-27 (WEB)

12 Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets. 
13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. 
14 How  narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it. 
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 
17 Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. 
18 A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 
19 Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. 
20 Therefore, by their fruits you will know them. 
21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 
22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 
23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’ 
24 “Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house on a rock. 
25 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. 
26 Everyone who hears these words of mine, and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man, who built his house on the sand. 
27 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.” 

What we are results in what we do.  It's your responsibility as to whether you believe the Lord or not; but the testimony remains true and clear.  If you are born again, then all things have become new.  You are no longer in bondage to sin; but are a slave to righteousness (this is not sinless perfection, before you raise a spurious objection).

If you live like the world, then you are of the world.  If it walks like a duck....

[Don19]

34 minutes ago, David1701 said:

What we are results in what we do.

Yes - if you are righteous, you will do righteousness. That is, Jesus Christ will be your righteousness and good works.

 

34 minutes ago, David1701 said:

 

  It's your responsibility as to whether you believe the Lord or not; but the testimony remains true and clear.  If you are born again, then all things have become new.  You are no longer in bondage to sin; but are a slave to righteousness (this is not sinless perfection, before you raise a spurious objection).

Jesus says whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. Slave of righteousness means that you've been freed from the condemnation of sin - that is, sin cannot condemn you. You are a slave of righteousness only if you do not commit sin. The one in Christ does not commit sin, because he's been born again. You don't sin at all, if you're in Christ, because your sin is not imputed to you. Not because you've reached perfection in the flesh, or because you've improved your flesh and are sinning less in the flesh.

 

34 minutes ago, David1701 said:

If you live like the world, then you are of the world.  If it walks like a duck....

Lordship salvation is of the world. Listen to LS preachers, and they're all about a fleshy transformation, striving after the flesh to do righteousness, and not resting in Christ.

[David1701]

23 hours ago, Don19 said:

Yes - if you are righteous, you will do righteousness. That is, Jesus Christ will be your righteousness and good works.

 

Jesus says whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. Slave of righteousness means that you've been freed from the condemnation of sin - that is, sin cannot condemn you. You are a slave of righteousness only if you do not commit sin. The one in Christ does not commit sin, because he's been born again. You don't sin at all, if you're in Christ, because your sin is not imputed to you. Not because you've reached perfection in the flesh, or because you've improved your flesh and are sinning less in the flesh.

 

Lordship salvation is of the world. Listen to LS preachers, and they're all about a fleshy transformation, striving after the flesh to do righteousness, and not resting in Christ.

Being a slave of righteousness is to do with what you DO, not your standing before God. 

1 John 3:6-10 (ESV)

6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's  seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Please quote, let's say, John MacArthur (one of the main proponents of LS), being all about a "fleshy transformation, striving after the flesh to do righteousness, and not resting in Christ.", so that we can see that you are not making libellous and wicked false accusations.

[Don19]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

Being a slave of righteousness is to do with what you DO, not your standing before God. 

Your understanding is completely contrary to how Paul uses it in Romans 6. Being a slave of righteousness is seen to be predicated on being freed from sin (Rom 6:18). Jesus said whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. Therefore, if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

1 John 3:6-10 (ESV)

6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's  seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

 

Bad translation, I believe, because those born of God do "keep on sinning" and there are examples of believers committing big sins in the New Testament. And sin "doth so easily beset us" according to Heb 12:1. My KJV says that those born of God "cannot sin"; and this makes sense, and harmonizes with Heb 12:1 when we understand that one meaning is spiritual and other carnal. As sin is defined as "missing the mark," this makes sense spiritually in 1 John. Those who are in Christ cannot sin because His seed abides in us. That is, we cannot be condemned by sin, because He has saved us and sealed us with His Spirit, which is the earnest (or pledge) of our inheritance. But the one who sins has a defiled conscience (Titus 1:15-16). Yet Christ has purged our conscience of sins (Heb 10:2). Moreover, John said his first epistle that the one who is born of God "heareth us" (1 John 4:6), so a spiritual interpretation ought to be favored here. 

If you want more proof, look at the example John goes on to give, of Cain and Abel. Cain hated his brother because his own works were evil and his brother's righteous. And yet Cain gathered up the fruit of the ground and offered that as his sacrifice to God. By the way, the fruit of the ground is a picture of man's works and righteousness being sacrificed to God, which is as filthy rags and rejected by God. But Abel offered the firstlings of his flock and was accepted. So Cain sinned - he fell short. His own works - the works of his hands - were evil. Abel was accepted; hence, he was righteous by the declaration of God, as we are righteous in Christ by the declaration of God. And we are "perfect" in Christ; Jesus said for us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. So this is a matter of imputed righteousness, not perfecting the righteousness of the flesh.

 

[David1701]

20 hours ago, Don19 said:

Your understanding is completely contrary to how Paul uses it in Romans 6. Being a slave of righteousness is seen to be predicated on being freed from sin (Rom 6:18). Jesus said whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. Therefore, if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

Bad translation, I believe, because those born of God do "keep on sinning" and there are examples of believers committing big sins in the New Testament. And sin "doth so easily beset us" according to Heb 12:1. My KJV says that those born of God "cannot sin"; and this makes sense, and harmonizes with Heb 12:1 when we understand that one meaning is spiritual and other carnal. As sin is defined as "missing the mark," this makes sense spiritually in 1 John. Those who are in Christ cannot sin because His seed abides in us. That is, we cannot be condemned by sin, because He has saved us and sealed us with His Spirit, which is the earnest (or pledge) of our inheritance. But the one who sins has a defiled conscience (Titus 1:15-16). Yet Christ has purged our conscience of sins (Heb 10:2). Moreover, John said his first epistle that the one who is born of God "heareth us" (1 John 4:6), so a spiritual interpretation ought to be favored here. 

If you want more proof, look at the example John goes on to give, of Cain and Abel. Cain hated his brother because his own works were evil and his brother's righteous. And yet Cain gathered up the fruit of the ground and offered that as his sacrifice to God. By the way, the fruit of the ground is a picture of man's works and righteousness being sacrificed to God, which is as filthy rags and rejected by God. But Abel offered the firstlings of his flock and was accepted. So Cain sinned - he fell short. His own works - the works of his hands - were evil. Abel was accepted; hence, he was righteous by the declaration of God, as we are righteous in Christ by the declaration of God. And we are "perfect" in Christ; Jesus said for us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. So this is a matter of imputed righteousness, not perfecting the righteousness of the flesh.

 

Oh good grief!  If you think that born again Christians "keep on sinning" (not merely sin sometimes, but keep on sinning - i.e. sin habitually), then you have a different religion, not Christianity.  He who justifies us also sanctifies us.  The evidence that you have gone through the narrow gate, is that you are walking in the narrow way.

Edited November 6, 2020 by David1701

[Don19]

10 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Oh good grief!  If you think that born again Christians "keep on sinning" (not merely sin sometimes, but keep on sinning - i.e. sin habitually), then you have a different religion, not Christianity.  He who justifies us also sanctifies us.  The evidence that you have gone through the narrow gate, is that you are walking in the narrow way.

Sanctification means to set apart, which is also positional and has to do with our standing in Christ, not improvements in the flesh as you keep insisting. What you’ve just said here denies any true possibility for assurance. If you’re looking to your works to know whether you belong to Christ, you are not worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth. That’s worshiping the works of your own hands. Isaiah 2:8.