Book of Enoch?

[leah777]

10 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

That's not what I asked.  The books the reformers came up with to be their Bible is different than the official bible decided by committee in A.D. 390-405 - Saint Jerome translates the Hebrew Bible into Latin and completes the Latin Vulgate manuscript. It includes the 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books, and 14 Apocrypha books.  This is essentially the Roman Catholic Bible that remains the Bible until the reformers revolt.  A.D. 1381-1382 - John Wycliffe and associates, in defiance of the organized Church (RCC), believing that people should be permitted to read the Bible in their own language, begin to translate and produce the first handwritten manuscripts of the entire Bible in English. These include the 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books, and 14 Apocrypha books.  This is way before Luther's Bible in German and the King James Version which was produced in two versions (KJV & KJVA), with and without the 14 books of the Apocrypha.  So if you don't know your history, just say you don't know instead of weighing in on subjects you don't have a background in.  This is not a slight against you at all.  I'd be surprised if 10% of the people who post here know the history of how the bible came to be. 

you are being rude and presumptuous.  Especially the bolded bit. This is not a history less or discussion nor do you know my learning. I studied early church history as part of my Theology degree. I am free to comment as I wish, you have no right to presume to judge me on your mistaken ideas about me. How you extrapolate this from a two sentence comment of mine is beyond me. The Reformation lasted a long time and there were several bible versions over that time.

Also, as I have told you before, English is not my first language so sometimes I ask, as i did in the post you quoted, for clarification of your wording so I understand your intention of meaning.

[FrankIeCip]

19 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said:

 

Are those books like that on CD? sound?

Honestly have no idea. 

[Starise]

I guess I take the book of Enoch with a grain of salt. It's a pretty large grain of salt though. I might be leaning on it too much for some of my ideas. Most of those ideas are only personal theories.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Many believe that Y'shua referred to the book Enoch.  Here is one example.  Where Y'shua stated that the scriptures spoke of Angels not given to marriage nor allowed to marry which is found no where in our modern cannon but it is found in the book of Enoch in several places which Y'shua referred to as scriptures.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. [Mat 22:29-30 KJV]

Wherefore have ye (fallen Angels) left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants as your sons? And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten children with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.” ~ (Enoch 15:5-7)

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Jayne]

1 hour ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Many believe that Y'shua referred to the book Enoch.  Here is one example.  Where Y'shua stated that the scriptures spoke of Angels not given to marriage nor allowed to marry which is found no where in our modern cannon but it is found in the book of Enoch in several places which Y'shua referred to as scriptures.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. [Mat 22:29-30 KJV]

Nope.  Jesus is not telling the Sadducees that they are wrong about angels and marriage.  That is NOT what their question was about.

And he does cite the scripture from the Bible that they are missing if you read it in the full context and not just a piece of the conversation.  They do not know Exodus 3:6 - so says Jesus.

He is telling them that they are wrong about the resurrection of the dead.  The Sadducees believe once you were dead - that's it.  No afterlife and no resurrection.  Your body just rotted that that's it.  They were DEAD wrong because they did not know the scriptures about eternal life one place or the other.

He had to answer that stupid question about 7 brothers marrying the same woman and who would be her husband in heaven to prove it stupid.

Besides please read the whole thing in context.  AFTER Jesus proves their question invalid - he gives the main point of the conversation and cites what they do not know - "But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,  "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

This conversation is not about angels and marriage.  It's about the resurrection from the dead and the Sadducees ignorance of it.

 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

24 minutes ago, Jayne said:

Nope.  Jesus is not telling the Sadducees that they are wrong about angels and marriage.  That is NOT what their question was about.

And he does cite the scripture from the Bible that they are missing if you read it in the full context and not just a piece of the conversation.  They do not know Exodus 3:6 - so says Jesus.

He is telling them that they are wrong about the resurrection of the dead.  The Sadducees believe once you were dead - that's it.  No afterlife and no resurrection.  Your body just rotted that that's it.  They were DEAD wrong because they did not know the scriptures about eternal life one place or the other.

He had to answer that stupid question about 7 brothers marrying the same woman and who would be her husband in heaven to prove it stupid.

Besides please read the whole thing in context.  AFTER Jesus proves their question invalid - he gives the main point of the conversation and cites what they do not know - "But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,  "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

This conversation is not about angels and marriage.  It's about the resurrection from the dead and the Sadducees ignorance of it.

 

No...in context Jesus addressed two separate issues marriage of humans after the resurrection and the resurrection itself and gave two separate answers.

The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? [Issue 1] for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.[Answer 1] But as touching the resurrection of the dead [Issue 2], have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living [Answer 2]. [Mat 22:23-32 KJV]

Show me where in scriptures that Jesus referenced that angels are not given into marriage?  How could they error in scriptures if its not stated in scriptures?

Edited November 4, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Jayne]

3 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Show me where in scriptures that Jesus referenced that angels are not given into marriage?  How could they error in scriptures if its not stated in scriptures?

I don't have to.  That's not the point of the conversation.

I'll speak more slowly.  The Sadducees were trying to trap Jesus about the resurrection and prove him wrong.  That's clear in the first sentence.  So they make up a silly story about a woman with seven husbands.

Jesus tells them they are wrong about scripture.  What scripture?  Exodus 3:6 he tells them.

The story of the woman with seven husbands is a ruse to prove their point - that there is no afterlife.  Why would they give a crap about marriage and angels?  Their dogma and tenet that they pushed on people was that there was no resurrection.  That's what made them wrong about Exodus 3:6 and what made them opposite from the Pharisees who DID believe in a resurrection.

I don't know how to explain this any more clearly.

Why would Jesus Christ - the WORD of God, himself - cite a book that lies about who God is, who angels are, who men of the Bible are, and lies about events of the Bible.

Have you actually READ 1 Enoch and compared it with what the Bible teaches?

I have - more than once.  The entire thing.

 

 

[Starise]

My interest in the book was intensified when I read that it was one of the books found along with the Dead Sea scrolls. Maybe that means nothing. I think it means something personally, even though I don't think the book should be a part of the scriptures.

When I read about how many translations of the Bible had glaring omissions...or additions made, I had to wonder if Enoch was simply one of those "uncomfortable" books to the reigning powers at the time, meaning they went to no great efforts to make it as visible as other references and writings. I had always been taught the book was totally useless before I ever read the first page.

I had little regard for it until more recently when I was attempting to answer some unanswered questions I had in addition to wondering why someone wouldn't want us to know about it. That makes me want to know all the more. 

The deeper question for me was relevance to mankind in general. How does this book or similar books further our spiritual understanding of the conditions that fostered our present world? How is it applicable to us now? Maybe that answer is different for different people. Is it all true beyond any doubt? Is some of it true? Then how much is true and which parts of it are true?

I don't think it can be denied there is some important relevance to our understanding of the "watchers". 

My thinking analytical side says that it sounds like the plot for the next Harry Potter film or similar. Not something that could possibly really happen. This is mainly because I have been conditioned to think that only physical beings of like kind can reproduce. Why did God mention that each kind produced after its own in creation? Was there another possible alternative that wasn't of God? 

The spiritual beings mentioned elsewhere in the Bible are sometimes described as what we here on earth would think of as very very odd. So I'm open to the very strong possibility that in some cases certain things can "cross over" to an extent or be something we have never seen before. This is all still a stretch for my analytical reasoning side to accept. 

I believe we can confirm fallen angels as eternal beings and as having been closest to creation as it happened were privy to some of that process. 

Concerning the angelic mixing with humans at the physical level which is strongly suggested in the accepted Bible, this doesn't appear to have been a  manipulation .

If you read the text at face value it simply says they took human women for wives. This would mean they had the ability to do "that". This goes against the idea that they neither married nor were given in marriage. Why would God equip a being sexually if they were not intended to have sex? How did they do "that"???? The only explanation I can come up with is some kind of manipulation, however this is not mentioned in the text.

The fact that there were giants as a result seems to indicate angels are enough like humans to mate with them but the genetics was off enough to produce these unusually tall beings that apparently had little use for any kind of morality. 

Enoch and similar books are the only places that infer demons were the souls of these offspring. It isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible. So to believe a lot of this we need to rely on it and a few other shards of information heavily to make a case for it. If someone came to us today with a tale like this there are more than a few who might think they were out in the desert sampling the peyote. 

Since another common story regarding these texts is  fallen angels came down and shared knowledge with men they would have never known otherwise, Enoch might be something we really weren't intended to see for lack of understanding it. The book appears to mainly have been directed at or for the watchers.

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Starise

[Justin Adams]

Very few realise that the Gen 6 events are what really instigated and augmented depravity on earth. Hardly anyone in the second temple period thought that it was just 'the fall'. They never mention the fall but they do focus on the 'angels that sinned'.

However, our doctrines have been rewritten by the Likes of Augustine and the seminaries that adopt his false theology. That is why 1st Enoch is disavowed.

Study about Augustine and see for yourself. No doubt the principalities and powers enjoy our ignorance, it assists them greatly.

BUT GOD..  Think about it. 1947, Qumran. 1948 Israel. No coincidence that.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Starise]

49 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Very few realise that the Gen 6 events are what really instigated and augmented depravity on earth. Hardly anyone in the second temple period thought that it was just 'the fall'. They never mention the fall but they do focus on the 'angels that sinned'.

However, our doctrines have been rewritten by the Likes of Augustine and the seminaries that adopt his false theology. That is why 1st Enoch is disavowed.

Study about Augustine and see for yourself. No doubt the principalities and powers enjoy our ignorance, it assists them greatly.

BUT GOD..  Think about it. 1947, Qumran. 1948 Israel. No coincidence that.

I am convinced this was true concerning the depravity after Gen 6.

Maybe one reason the punishment for the watchers is far worse than ours. They have no hope of salvation ever.

In some ways the "mop up" operation has resulted in only a remnant of men saved. Wide is the way to destruction. While men are responsible for themselves, the watchers have done nothing but initiate, add to and compound the issues. 

I have to ask what was at the heart of it? Sometimes I think maybe because we were the "new kids on the block". Motivation- Jealousy. Jealousy of men who were put in to God's garden , Satan's jealousy of Yahweh. His desire to take the position of Yahweh.

And did they repent? It doesn't appear they did at all. Instead they simply continue to disrupt everything here on this earth as much as possible to this very  day.  

My largest question in all of this is why we were put in the midst of an already ongoing battle?  We had an uphill climb from the start.