Child abuse...where is God's will in this?

[Diaste]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:08 AM, Josheb said:

Nope. Not my position at all and I would like you to stop reading things into my posts I did not write. No mutual understanding between us with God's word will happen as long as things I didn't write are read into what I did write. 

Then I would think  steering clear of a short synopsis would help. 

On 11/17/2020 at 7:08 AM, Josheb said:

The question this op asks is definitely a question of theodicy but unlike those who oppose God the would-be problem of theodicy is easily solved. It is solved and resolved when we understand the before and after aspects of creation and sin and don't limit God to a single solitary lone explanation, especially not one based on our limited experience and any mock disdain for sin. 

Mock disdain? Hardly, at least not on my part. You may disagree here but sin is not what most believe it to be. Sin is not the behavior of the individual, it's the blood guilt borne by the descendants of Adam. The behavior of a person is the manifestation of the deception to which Eve succumbed in the Garden. That behavior was born of the ability to choose and manipulated by the enticing lie of the serpent. All the bad behavior, negative self talk, irresponsible acts, uncontrolled anger and the bowing to irrationality are the products of that tainted blood and the same deception, albeit modified as required, which confronted Eve.

I don't think the problem of theodicy is solved in such a way. Theodicy is littered with illogic much like atheism. For me it seems the intent is to either rationalize God out of existence or lay all the blame of the world's ills at His feet. 

God is good. Satan is evil. Mankind follows Satan in the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life; a self evident conclusion from which few are immune. In my mind evil is allowed but not condoned for two reasons: the lake of fire is an eternal condition which must be avoided at all costs and it is therefore the better choice to let mankind live to give as much opportunity to hear the Spirit as possible and; God is building the resume of every individual in order to find that one small act abrogating all charges by the prosecution permitting entrance to eternity of life.

I trust all these who have suffered will be comforted. It's our job to comfort as many as we can while we are both still here.

 

On 11/17/2020 at 7:08 AM, Josheb said:

 

That's not entirely true. Satan causes evil. God causes evil in an already sinful world (He did not cause evil in a sinless world), and sin causes sin. Three of the four causes of sin have been neglected in that statement. 

If you have a scripture other that Isaiah 45:7 proving God causes evil I'd be happy to look it over.

 

On 11/17/2020 at 7:08 AM, Josheb said:

Curious comment. I think that is often the case but I wonder if you think grace is a just and correct response. God's response to sin and evil has been two-fold, not singular! He has just and correct punishment awaiting the unrepentant unregenerate but He has grace awaiting the repentant regenerate and no non-believer makers themselves believers. 

And this aspect of grace is what I am trying to get at when saying God does in fact have a will and purpose for abuse. He is the Sovereign God over all, and that necessarily means He and He alone is sovereign and sovereign over sin - all sin. He's not just sovereign over the sins of idolatry and adultery and theft; He is sovereign over child abuse. 

And those submitted to His will will find... He works all things for good in the lives of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. 

That includes child abuse.

That includes child abuse in all its forms. 

That's literally painful to read. Is this some form of determinism? I think one must cast this aside to be objective. It's sounds as if you are saying God planned for some to be abused and in fact installed abusers in their life or caused them to be born into an abusive family, just to have cause to do something good later. 

It makes little sense in light of the totality of scripture. I wonder if it makes any sense that a person could take what was a bad situation and turn it to good even though the bad part had nothing to do with them. 

Surely foster parents, adoptive parents, or those who rescue animals had nothing to do with the abuses heaped upon the less fortunate. Cannot God raise up the downtrodden by His goodness; having nothing to do with the evils?

This doesn't remove or lessen God's authority to say situations arose in His realm that He neither condoned or commanded. People can act in any way they choose and it's unfair to blame others for the acts of other individuals. 

On 11/17/2020 at 7:08 AM, Josheb said:

God is either sovereign over all or He is not God. 

False dichotomy. Man is a moral free agent. As painful as it must be God allows us to continue. 

On 11/17/2020 at 7:08 AM, Josheb said:

So, NO! I am not saying God causes abuse. I am saying God's will is involved one way or another in all that happens within His creation and it all serves His purpose. Even child abuse. Learning to trust that can be restorative, rehabilitative, healing, conciliatory (or whatever word you choose to use there as long as it is redemptive in nature). 

This is correct except that it's isn't the will of God that abuse occurs. You seem to be saying two things at once. God can and does comfort the fallen but the conditions under which a person suffered capricious abuses are not the will of the Most High.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:08 AM, Josheb said:

 

Before a single act of abuse ever happened in the life of the abused, those who would get saved already had a list of works prepared for them to perform. 

 

Determinism again? Free will. Mankind has it and abuses it. 

[integrity]

2 hours ago, rhomphaeam said:

Dear Sister,

Your post has been on my heart since I first read it two days ago and so my first post as a "newbie" that is unmoderated is to answer your many points and to do so in a compassionate spirit that I pray will help others, along with yourself to both know and bear with the suffering of children in this world and to do so before God and the church in our own place for His glory. 

You have asked and made clear numerous things that are so needful for the churches to face up to that I can scarcely believe that the Lord would be so gracious to permit me to respond to such a post and to do so in the confidence of His love on a Christian forum that is stewarded by a brother in Israel. His mercy is unfathomable and His ways are full of goodness in His righteousness, His judgement and His mercy. 

Our brethren (fellow Christians) will always mark the bench of our shared lives that leaves us with hope in God to answer our burdens or else have the effect of discouraging us. It is that discouragement that we need to weigh carefully because it tends to give us a natural and often reasonable reaction to asking God, by asking His children and the effect can be taken to seemingly accuse God in others minds, even when we say that we know that God is good. Yet in truth it may stir the same vexation in others so it is easier to accuse you than to truly ask courageous questions. Yet your point is not accusatory of the Father - it may be another mark on the bench of our shared lives in Christ that those who see your bench mark may stumble at even as your own prayers have come to a seeming fruitless end on this most difficult subject. 

When I preach from the pulpit, sometimes I point my finger to the west of the church and ask the question, "Where was God when that child was raped last night? Where was He? And why did He not intervene and spare her that suffering?" Those who hear these questions openly in the church are spared the necessity of asking in their private conversations and even in their conversations in the churches because they know that God is good. Such questions would be better coming from the pulpit first and only then rising in our hearts as a burden of need to ask God how it is that He knows what we can hardly fathom and sees what we could not bear to see. So you are right to ask the question. Yet you are asking from your own suffering growing up as a child in a christian household, and not from the the finger that points to the waste land that lies to the west of the church. To ask from your place sister is a much more difficult asking than to ask from the pulpit because it is wrought with pain and it is formed by seeing the difficulty of those we call brethren when they cannot ask God because the pastors and the elders will not openly ask God. 

These precepts are not borne out of simply knowing that God is good and yet He sees unfathomable suffering in the world, of which none is more a cause of stumbling than to truly harm children. They have been wrought in suffering as a child at the hands of my own mother so well that I was taken into care when I was ten years old by which time I was battered and harmed physically and emotionally so that I had lost sight of God and was beginning to draw into the occult by the hand of Satan. In care I was sexually abused and then after a further seven years I was discarded into the world with no seeming hope of recovery or happiness. At seventeen I attempted suicide and swallowed 50 strong tablets. I slept for two whole days and awoke to find myself once again having to face life alone and almost destroyed. Yet I have seen that the Father' hand was upon me and that even in my childhood he had laid down a way of escape because when I finally and openly shook my fist at Him, He came and brought me to His Son. Now I can ask those difficult questions from the pulpit because I know that God sees everything. So if I ask the Father in such boldness and not in an accusatory spirit others seeing this reality are also strengthened to ask themselves. And it seems to me that you have asked the Father also. 

Perhaps you could also ask in the church! Not by speaking your concerns but by praying in the hearing of the brethren those grave concerns? If you did that then your prayers would become prophetic because they would stir others to pray in their own hearts and in the end the Father will raise up His answer in your midst and redeem the children who are suffering. If there are truly none that would have the same heart as you have then tell that to the Father privately and let the prophets rebuke the churches. But you must guard against harming yourself because you cannot resolve that great love of the Father with the astonishing indifference of some of His children. Moreover, sister you also need to understand what the Lord has given you. When the Father found me languishing in a prison cell aged 24 years having thrown myself down utterly and being in such anger towards Him so as to begin the written text to form an occult order I asked the Father why He had waited for so long to reveal himself and Christ - His answer was that He wanted me the way I was. The Lord wants you the way you are also. Healed, when you are fully healed and compassionate as you are compassionate and zealous for the children whom the Father sees and concerning whom we will not escape if we do not seek God in our time. Shalom.

 

I am so grateful for your reply! May God bless you and protect you, I am sorry for everything you went through. It is wonderful to hear that you were able to come to God and find healing, praise God.

It has been a bit hurtful, these comments that people have posted. Assuming I am blaming God and using some weird blame game. I am not, and this is why I will not just bring it up in church. In my personal life I have tried to talk about it with people. Everyone goes silent and looks away. Like it's some inconvenient truth, but in the same breath they say children are a blessing from the Lors, He has a special place in His heart for them. And amen!! He surely does, I know because He saw me, and guided me as far back as my memory goes

. I couldn't figure out how to word this post maybe. But that's you have found the words for me...I am appalled just as I came here I know people will do in real life. I ask a question, that I never hear an answer to in church, about the neglected unloved children. They will say how fmdare you blame God? It's His will, basically what has been repeated here by a few posters. I mean what on earth is that?  I am asking because I KNOW God is good  so what are we to do with this horrible thing that satan has been doing for centuries...and the church been ignoring or putting on low priority? That's why I said I have no desire to continue talking with a certain poster. And then people telling me to stop fighting. No this person was no help at all. I wasnt going to keep arguing. It is saddening to see how people lack empathy and speak in such a condescending way.

I have greatly struggled for the past 5 years as soon as I became a mother myself. My mother in law dislikes me, my own mother sees no wrong in what she did, so I feel very cur off from them. I talk with them and am polite and loving, but I feel emotionallycut off from them in the sense that I cannot view them as mentors to me or someone who loves me enough to answer these questions or at least help me navigate this.  And what motivates this question is to be able to heal myself, because I want to raise my own children with love, and to be able to help other children eventually. I feel alone in this  so I reached out. I'm not looking for apologies, I just wanted to be understood.

Again you gave some wonderful tips and made some true points. It should be talked about at church so we can all pray for it.we shouldn't care only about our little circle. I will pray for God to put it in the minds and hearts of my church.

 

God bless you, you have given me words for what I could not say. You are the only person in this thread that answered my actual questions w ithout judging me and assuming I was blaming God.

Edited November 19, 2020 by integrity

[Starise]

In any case I posted here because of the CHILDREN. I think we all wish we could stop all of this insanity. 

The judgment for the choices of men  will come. I just wish would come sooner rather than later. I trust God to do the right thing though. I know He will.

 

[integrity]

2 hours ago, rhomphaeam said:

Dear Sister,

When my youngest son was five years of age I was watching him play one time and quite unexpectedly I suddenly had the thought that I was looking at myself when I was his age. I then realised for the first time in my life that I had been the same child he was when I was a child. All my mothers' accusations and ill effects came into clear focus and I finally knew that I was an ordinary and reasonable child after all. In your case perhaps you have had a similar but an opposite experience. You seem to be saying that having children has focused your own experience as a child and brought you to a need to explain what you felt. Although I never disrespected my mother as a child, and even as a adult held her in respect insofar as I did not hate her for the harm she did me, I always knew that I had to go beyond my own experience and find the strength to let the psychological harm go. That often translates into emotional thoughts and almost always is harmful when it is held aloof of God' love.

Seeing that my son's naughtiness was mere childishness and remembering my own naughtiness and the consequence by my mother's hand made me realise that my mother was not to blame even though she was responsible. It is only the revelation of the Father that makes that possible. To forgive ones mother and to understand her responsibility is a scale that we need to handle carefully. It easily trips into one side or the other. Perhaps the brethren on here are simply trying to weigh the balance themselves and so sometimes they fall into the one scale and see the love of God, but lose sight of the responsibility to God in the other scale. 

Enoch began seeking God after he first had a son. Today he is alive in heaven as Elijah is alive in his own body and appeared on the mount of transfiguration. All the prophets took the business of children very seriously as does God. You would imagine that when the widow had her flour and oil replenished every day by the hand of God through the ministry of Elijah she would have known that he was a man of God. Yet it was her son from the dead that had her declare that she now knew that he was a man of God. Some things are just basic and like food they are easily understood. But this business of children is the very heart of God and no one should underestimate how God views our harm when we cause our children to stumble. So in your own experience your own children appear to have provoked that deeper need for others' children. So when you are in the church just get up and pray according to how you are led to pray. Then look to the Father and see how He answers your prayers. If no one can say an Amen then tell God. He will send the rod of correction swift enough.

God Bless and may the Lord bless you and your household always.

You are right  you have said exactly what I understand to be true. My moms repeated daily neglect, lack of love, angry outbursts that were both verbal and physically abusive...she was responsible but I do not blame her. She was stressed a lot, and I unfortunately got the brunt of it. I understand how stressed she must have been. Also not everyone is meant to be a mother of a lot of children, she clearly was doing it because of "christian duty" but it was not her passion at all. Anyways I agree with you. Thank you for the insight  and the biblical wisdom! I will read on that and meditate on those scriptures. Be blessed!

[Figure of eighty]

Its never God's will. God cant control sinful people. He could but he doesnt do that, he didnt even remove his own cup of suffering. 

However, God can bring good out of any situation.

[Figure of eighty]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Are you sure? 

I'm fairly confident folks like Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Jonah, and Ananias would beg to differ.

The problem here is that many of the posters I have read are thinking in a strict and simple either/or dichotomy that is not an accurate reflection of whole scripture. God most certainly does control some people and He does so quite deterministically. To others He give a great deal of liberty (such as the license he gave satan to manipulate Job). Most of our life falls somewhere in between in terms of God's intervention and the degree of influence He applies. Fundamentally, the true dichotomy scripture asserts is that of slavery - all humans are either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness and we do not expect the former to act like the latter. God uses both to accomplish His will. The former does so in hostile ignorance; the latter does so as servants who have become adopted heirs through the work of Jesus and the Holy Spirt (both of whom the former lack). 

If it were not for the loges (written and incarnate) we would not know abuse as abuse. It is only because God has designed creation as a moral construct that its corruption has meaning. 

The beaten, raped, or otherwise abused child knows nothing of this. 

That is why it is important for the Church to teach and act rightly (in obedience) for therein lies redemption and restoration. 

In those instances the people you listed-- their hearts were already aligned twds evil. He gave pharoah anf everyone else a chance to repent but he sees the future and those that wont change and if you refuse to be sanctified by his power and used for his good will then he'll use you for another purpose. Just my opinion.

[Figure of eighty]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

We're not talking about heart alignments and repentance and sanctification and all the other red herrings. The statements made were, "God can't control sinful people. He could but He doesn't." That is not true, is it? God can and He has and He does control sinful people. 

Notice I mentioned Jonah. Are you saying Jonah's heart was aligned towards evil? 

Do you think God was napping when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery and then conspired to deceive their father? Do you think Simeon was acting as a completely autonomous agent, completely apart from the will of God when he mediated on Joseph's behalf arguing not to kill the boy but sell him into slavery? 

Maybe God was on vacation all those years Jacob's mother nurtured him amidst the deference of his father such that mother and son would conspire to deceive the dad? God did not allow that to happen? 

More fundamentally, is it being suggested Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar arose to their respective thrones entirely apart from God's will? Or that God did not deliberately use Egypt and Babylon to temper His people? 

Sure you want to continue defending the prior claims? No amendments? Wouldn't it be better, easier, and further the discussion on abuse if the erroneous statement was corrected? Doesn't healing from abuse lie in the truth of God's word, the whole truth of whole scripture? 

Do we have free will or dont we? Gods word says he does. Just reading your post this sounds personal. If youve been abused my heart goes out to you. It wasnt Gods will for your life. I say hang on to him. 

[SisterWells]

19 hours ago, Josheb said:

nt

What does that mean? 

[integrity]

4 hours ago, Drafido said:

I don't know what you are talking about.  I never said anything about diagnosing over the internet nor did I say anything about diagnosing schizophrenia.  I don't have any childhood trauma but I mentioned the smacking incident to find out if that type of behaviour could be classed as psychologically abnormal in some way.

8

 

4 hours ago, Drafido said:

I don't know what you are talking about.  I never said anything about diagnosing over the internet nor did I say anything about diagnosing schizophrenia.  I don't have any childhood trauma but I mentioned the smacking incident to find out if that type of behaviour could be classed as psychologically abnormal in some way.

I think drafido, that the only way you can describe that behavior is someone having lack of control over their anger/annoyance. Doesnt necessarily mean someone is mentally I'll or whatever. My mom was that way too. She would never ket someone get away with harming us in any way, but she didnt realize how abusive she was. And still doesnt think she was. Her mentality was I'm your mom, I have it rough  you guys are annoying so I can flip out. She would defend me if she saw my older siblings  bothering me. And she didnt let our dad discipline us most of the time because she was afraid he would hurt us. But my dad was not abusive at all. He never lost his cool on any of us like she lost it with me. So to answer your question I think your dad just lost his composure with your behavior. (You're not at fault, parents are always responsible for their actions).

[Daniel Marsh]

On 11/9/2020 at 3:53 PM, integrity said:

I just want to preface by saying I do believe God is loving and perfect. But I can't come to terms with this. I was born into a christian family, went to church all my life, and I dont know if it's just my culture...but no one talk about child abuse, as in calling attention to the world wide problem of it  and definitely no one prays over it fervently. I wonder what is our purpose as Christian's towards it? People are basically told to reproduce and fill the earth...what about the children in foster care or orphanages? This is a stumbling block for me. I used to pray fervently about the issue of all the children unloved in this world, but what to pray? And is there a point? My heart goes to pieces if I actually think about this problem because I question God. Will He supernaturally rescue those children from their horrific circumstance (starvation, beating, sexual, verbal abuse)? If not, what is the point? Children dont deserve any of that. I feel convicted to foster as soon as my babies get a bit older. But I look around and many of the Christians I know don't talk about it  no one at church brings it up for prayer. Barely anyone I know fosters. Idk lately I've been seeing how empty most Christian's are...they go to church obey Gods laws for purity but love and charity and caring for the parentless isnt on anyone's radar. Why doesn't God speak to us more about this? Please share your opinions on any or all of my questions. This is truly something that makes me so sick, because I was emotionally neglected as a child. I cannot fathom feeling unwanted and unloved on every front. No child should have to go through that.

It is not God's will for people to be abused.