Sin disguised as Virtue?

[Unit 11]

Sin disguised as virtue?

I'm been thinking lately, that it's one thing when you commit a sin but know it's wrong. You have to rectify it. It's something else when you're led to believe it's okay--or even noble--under certain circumstances.

I've related now and then about a home fellowship group I attended during the Clinton years. The leader was a sold-out Dobson Disciple who listened to Focus on the Family every day. And what he heard, he passed on: the liberals were destroying our country and had evil designs on our kids. ("They're coming after our kids," he said once.) We needed to be politically active, oppose them, overcome them. A believer who wasn't politically active was just "lazy," according to his missus. There was such a strong vibe of Us against Them. 

Only recently I've considered those years in light of Paul's admonitions in Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3, to name a couple. Is it all right for Christians to hate under any circumstances? It seems like regardless of the object, it'll corrode and harden us, and that can't go too well with God's spirit. And looking at Galatians 5, hatred is also named among the fleshly things; those who practice them won't inherit God's kingdom. 

And yet, say you're following a leader, a famous radio minister with a slew of books and a following of thousands...and he hates someone, in this case the liberals. You look up to him, you trust him, and so if he hates those people, then you should too, right? It's Godly and it's righteous. You're fighting for Family! And so how will you get over it then?

Just saying...

 

[OneLight]

There is a difference between hating an action and hating a person.  What do you think scripture means when it tells us that the Lord loved Jacob, but hated Esau?  I believe that if you look deeper, it is the actions that is being hated, not the person.  I'm sure that if the person changed their ways he would feel different about them.

[OneLight]

H8130 and G3404 both claim basically the same meaning, where the Hebrew meaning is harsher.  In their basic definitions, they mean:

H8130:

1. to hate, be hateful

   1. (Qal) to hate

      1. of man

      2. of God

      3. hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)

   2. (Niphal) to be hated

   3. (Piel) hater (participle)

      1. of persons, nations, God, wisdom

 

G3404:

1. to hate, pursue with hatred, detest

2. to be hated, detested

 

Now, the question I posed was, is this toward the actions and heart of a person, or in general the person no matter what they did?  I believe the former.

 

[OneLight]

28 minutes ago, rhomphaeam said:

You did pose that question for sure. And you answered it in the former. My comment was already in the making before you posted so it wasn't an attempt to gainsay your point. It was a Calvinist view of predestination. So I don't tend to concern myself about political divisions neither supposed conservative or liberal issues. They make no difference with God. 

I don't see where politics ever came into play, so you lost me there.  I prefer to stick to the topic at hand and not diverge into the debate on predestination.

[enoob57]

Esau can be examined in Scripture and see why God hated him... God really meant nothing to Esau as he loved the created thing more than the One Who created it...

[Starise]

4 hours ago, Unit 11 said:

Sin disguised as virtue?

I'm been thinking lately, that it's one thing when you commit a sin but know it's wrong. You have to rectify it. It's something else when you're led to believe it's okay--or even noble--under certain circumstances.

I've related now and then about a home fellowship group I attended during the Clinton years. The leader was a sold-out Dobson Disciple who listened to Focus on the Family every day. And what he heard, he passed on: the liberals were destroying our country and had evil designs on our kids. ("They're coming after our kids," he said once.) We needed to be politically active, oppose them, overcome them. A believer who wasn't politically active was just "lazy," according to his missus. There was such a strong vibe of Us against Them. 

Only recently I've considered those years in light of Paul's admonitions in Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3, to name a couple. Is it all right for Christians to hate under any circumstances? It seems like regardless of the object, it'll corrode and harden us, and that can't go too well with God's spirit. And looking at Galatians 5, hatred is also named among the fleshly things; those who practice them won't inherit God's kingdom. 

And yet, say you're following a leader, a famous radio minister with a slew of books and a following of thousands...and he hates someone, in this case the liberals. You look up to him, you trust him, and so if he hates those people, then you should too, right? It's Godly and it's righteous. You're fighting for Family! And so how will you get over it then?

Just saying...

 

I can see the the ministry approach of James Dobson, or maybe more accurately the way his ministry was portrayed by an individual or individuals may have had a negative effect on you.  Can you give examples where it looks like hate in Dobson's materials? 

Neither do I think all ministries of this type are always beyond reproach. Most of  them were started on the pretense to advance the kingdom, to minister to and to help people. Sometimes things get sloppy in the operations or they bring in people who take the ministry in a different direction. Sometimes to the detriment of that ministry. The larger the ministry, the more potential there is for trouble because there's more to manage. 

Sometimes I think it has as much or more to do with the delivery of the information than it does the information itself. 

While I think it's very easy for someone to take everything as truth from someone they think is a godly spiritual person, or from a church or ministry they were raised with as fact, all such teaching should be held against the light of scripture and not a surface answer that wasn't based on any study but a deeply investigated point. In other words, not just reading a verse possibly out of context. Lots of pastors and teachers make guesses. If everyone knows it's a hunch or a guess ok. The problem comes in when people teach it as fact when it isn't fact.

Hopefully most who live in the US will see there are and have been various attacks on us through school curriculum, attempted institutional  efforts towards social engineering to get people to accept  things we should not be accepting as Christians. Hollywood making films that make life look like anything but normal. This sort of thing is shoved down our throats here almost non stop and it's only getting worse. 

I don't believe we should hate anyone, but we do have enemies. We are instructed to love our enemies without agreeing to their demands.

 

 

[GandalfTheWise]

5 hours ago, Unit 11 said:

Sin disguised as virtue?

I'm been thinking lately, that it's one thing when you commit a sin but know it's wrong. You have to rectify it. It's something else when you're led to believe it's okay--or even noble--under certain circumstances.

I've related now and then about a home fellowship group I attended during the Clinton years. The leader was a sold-out Dobson Disciple who listened to Focus on the Family every day. And what he heard, he passed on: the liberals were destroying our country and had evil designs on our kids. ("They're coming after our kids," he said once.) We needed to be politically active, oppose them, overcome them. A believer who wasn't politically active was just "lazy," according to his missus. There was such a strong vibe of Us against Them. 

Only recently I've considered those years in light of Paul's admonitions in Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3, to name a couple. Is it all right for Christians to hate under any circumstances? It seems like regardless of the object, it'll corrode and harden us, and that can't go too well with God's spirit. And looking at Galatians 5, hatred is also named among the fleshly things; those who practice them won't inherit God's kingdom. 

And yet, say you're following a leader, a famous radio minister with a slew of books and a following of thousands...and he hates someone, in this case the liberals. You look up to him, you trust him, and so if he hates those people, then you should too, right? It's Godly and it's righteous. You're fighting for Family! And so how will you get over it then?

Just saying...

 

I see most of the issue in things like this being when Christians do not exhibit clear fruit of the Spirit in their lives, actions, and words.  One debate that seems to arise over and over again is assuming that one has to choose between "being kind and loving to all" and "standing up for the truth" and then debating which is more important.  In my opinion, those most effective at standing up for the truth are those whose tone, words, and attitude constantly exemplify Galatians 5:22-23.     I think some Christians lose sight that we are not fighting people but rather power and principalities.    When it turns into choosing between "love" and "truth", I think we've lost sight of the big picture which must include both.

[Marathoner]

6 hours ago, Unit 11 said:

Sin disguised as virtue?

I'm been thinking lately, that it's one thing when you commit a sin but know it's wrong. You have to rectify it. It's something else when you're led to believe it's okay--or even noble--under certain circumstances.

I've related now and then about a home fellowship group I attended during the Clinton years. The leader was a sold-out Dobson Disciple who listened to Focus on the Family every day. And what he heard, he passed on: the liberals were destroying our country and had evil designs on our kids. ("They're coming after our kids," he said once.) We needed to be politically active, oppose them, overcome them. A believer who wasn't politically active was just "lazy," according to his missus. There was such a strong vibe of Us against Them. 

Only recently I've considered those years in light of Paul's admonitions in Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3, to name a couple. Is it all right for Christians to hate under any circumstances? It seems like regardless of the object, it'll corrode and harden us, and that can't go too well with God's spirit. And looking at Galatians 5, hatred is also named among the fleshly things; those who practice them won't inherit God's kingdom. 

And yet, say you're following a leader, a famous radio minister with a slew of books and a following of thousands...and he hates someone, in this case the liberals. You look up to him, you trust him, and so if he hates those people, then you should too, right? It's Godly and it's righteous. You're fighting for Family! And so how will you get over it then?

Just saying...

 

I appreciate what you wrote, my friend. Well done.

Indeed, this world of men clings to a form of godliness wherein some look to the scriptures as justification for all manner of evil under the sun. They look to the example of Esau and apply the principle therein to the hatred they foment toward their neighbor; the Lord hated Esau so clearly they are justified in hating. They'll sweeten it with sugar --- clothing it in virtue as the title of your topic illustrates --- by declaring it only applies to the actions of their neighbor and not the neighbor himself. 

Thus they denounce their neighbor by leveling all manner of accusation against him, some true and some false, turning a blind eye to the hatred which hardens their hearts and forgetting the mercy which God our Father extended to us all in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ whom He sent. They pay no heed to the veracity of the accusations they hurl: if it appeals to what is right in their own eyes then they are swift to arm themselves with the javelin so proffered. 

This is the danger of occupying oneself with the cares of this world. The wrath of man does not serve the righteousness of God nor can the judgment of man exalt itself above the throne of the Almighty. 

Accuse not a servant unto his master, lest he curse thee, and thou be found guilty.
There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
(Proverbs 30:10-14 KJV)

Never cease from cleaving to the truth, @Unit 11.  
 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Marathoner
typo

[missmuffet]

7 hours ago, Unit 11 said:

Sin disguised as virtue?

I'm been thinking lately, that it's one thing when you commit a sin but know it's wrong. You have to rectify it. It's something else when you're led to believe it's okay--or even noble--under certain circumstances.

I've related now and then about a home fellowship group I attended during the Clinton years. The leader was a sold-out Dobson Disciple who listened to Focus on the Family every day. And what he heard, he passed on: the liberals were destroying our country and had evil designs on our kids. ("They're coming after our kids," he said once.) We needed to be politically active, oppose them, overcome them. A believer who wasn't politically active was just "lazy," according to his missus. There was such a strong vibe of Us against Them. 

Only recently I've considered those years in light of Paul's admonitions in Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3, to name a couple. Is it all right for Christians to hate under any circumstances? It seems like regardless of the object, it'll corrode and harden us, and that can't go too well with God's spirit. And looking at Galatians 5, hatred is also named among the fleshly things; those who practice them won't inherit God's kingdom. 

And yet, say you're following a leader, a famous radio minister with a slew of books and a following of thousands...and he hates someone, in this case the liberals. You look up to him, you trust him, and so if he hates those people, then you should too, right? It's Godly and it's righteous. You're fighting for Family! And so how will you get over it then?

Just saying...

 

Compromising your faith?

[Marathoner]

This has been discussed elsewhere on the forum. What does the apostle encourage us to do?

Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

We test ourselves (not our neighbor) to see if we are in the faith. 

The first chapter of 2 Peter furnishes us with a similar exhortation in verses 10-11,

Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choice of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Brotherly kindness and love do not concern themselves with the sanctity of one's neighbor nor is love preoccupied with rumors, accusation, denouncement and hatred, all of which are fruits of this world under the rulership of the evil one. It is rare to encounter one who professes Christ willing to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith; many prefer to audit their neighbor's business instead, believing themselves justified to govern his affairs. 

Why is anyone who professes Christ shocked at the evil in this world? How many times have factions of well-intentioned believers sought power in government only to prove themselves no better than those they sought to depose? There's nothing new under the sun.