The Great Tribulation is no purgatory for the church / Foolish virgins scream......(scary stuff)

[Omegaman 3.0]

12 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Shalom Omega,

Many believe, based on the above verse 29-30 that Jesus will appear after the sun is darkened.

How can people still be eating and drinking and building and planting if the sun is already darkened ?

Luke 17:28 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.

Unless you have a steel nerve to keep building and planting when the sun is darkened already, third part of trees was burnt up, you keep building and planting, an asteroid hit the earth and kill one third of sea creature and the ships, you keep building and planting........... NO I DONT THINK PEOPLE OF THE WORLD CAN CONTINUE THAT IN THE GT BUT THEY WILL SCRAMBLE FOR THE REMAINING CROP.

So while the sun is still shining before the GT, Lord Jesus appear on the cloud in the same situation like days of Lot where people are busily doing their business in the warm sunshine.

Matt 24:29-30 doesnt explain a sequential event where the sun is darkened first then Jesus appear on the clouds. Because if thats so we just need to look at the sky whether the sun is still shining today, if yes then Jesus wont ever come.

Isaiah 26:20 Go, My people, enter your rooms and SHUT THE DOOR behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until His wrath has passed by 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Matt 25:10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And THE DOOR WAS SHUT.

Shalom to you also, Hartono!

Aplogies ahead of time, this will take some time to address this thorough, a succint response will not do it justice, but the questions are worth addressing, so thank you for the opportunity.

Well, let’s see if I can understand what I think you might be asking. The verse about the sun being darkened:

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So there is the context, and the given sequence of those events:

·         The tribulation, then

·         The appearance of the son of man coming

So yes, I would agree with the many people who believe that Jesus will appear after the darkening of the sun, that IS what the text says. Also, in case it is relevant at some point in the discussion, let’s notice the fact that Jesus does not come after some significant delay following the tribulation of those days (those days being the great tribulation which He had just described) but rather “immediately after”.

Then you asked:

How can people still be eating and drinking and building and planting if the sun is already darkened ?

Well, let’s look at the details, so other readers can follow along:

Luke 17

26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

OK as it was in the days of Noah, how was it at the time? Notice that Jesus said they were marrying and giving in marriage, then the flood came and took them all. Who did the flood take? Those who were marrying. On the ark, there were 8 people, Noah and his wife, his three sons, and their three wives. Since all of those 8 people were already married, the “they” and “them all” is a reference to those outside the ark, there were the ones taken by surprise when the flood came and took them all away?

Now, we already noted that the darkening will be immediately after the tribulation. It is during the tribulation, that people are saying peace and safety that destruction comes:

1 Thess 5

1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers,^a you have no need to have anything written to you. 2For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” 

If they are saying peace and security (or some translations say “peace and safety:) , what is next?

then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

So, this fits the description of that time well, the people outside the ark were living life as normal, before the flood took them all away, and the people Paul describes are also feeling secure, when sudden destruction comes upon them.

In the time of Noah, there were two groups, inside the ark and outside the ark. In Paul description pf the end, there are also two groups, those in darkness and those in the light.

4But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5For you are all children^b of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 

So, those outside the ark, those in the darkness, are the ones living life without a care, they are the ones who will be eating and drinking, buying and selling, marrying building, planting etc. because they are the ones cooperating in the beast system, taking the mark so that they can go on with life, it is the Christians who refuse the mark and undergo the persecution of the antichrist and his minions.

As the passage above points out, it is the brethren who are not in darkness, and who are not surprised buy sudden destruction. Christians are not subject to the wrath of God like those outside the ark, and those in darkness, they are appointed to salvation instead, which we see at the Lords coming, when we go up to meet Him in the air, and be with Him forever. This is why we are encouraged by these words,

In Luke 21, we see these times this way:

25“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Jesus’ coming is a visible to all event, nothing secret about it. it is seen bright like lightning comes and shines from east to west. However, it is a time of destruction for some, and rapture for others, and not a single verse in the Bible says it occurs before the 7 years, and I am sure everyone knows that who has studied these things  and believed what they read in the Bible. Some though prefer to believe in sermons, commentaries, and fictional books and movies about being left behind.

So Hartono, the answer to your question is that people are not doing the things you suggested in the absence of sunlight, they are doing those things BEFORE the sun goes dark, just before the brilliant appearance of the Lord at His coming, immediately after the tribulation, exactly like the Bible says.

You also said:

So while the sun is still shining before the GT, Lord Jesus appear on the cloud in the same situation like days of Lot where people are busily doing their business in the warm sunshine.

Matt 24:29-30 doesnt explain a sequential event where the sun is darkened first then Jesus appear on the clouds. Because if thats so we just need to look at the sky whether the sun is still shining today, if yes then Jesus wont ever come.

Sorry, but there I am not understanding what you are trying to say, However, yes, Matt 24 does give a sequence:

1
 There are the birthpains, verses 5 through 8

Then verse 9

2
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

and then, verse 10-12

3
 10And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Verse 14, another then

4
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Verse 16, another then

5
15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

verse 18, yet another:

6
17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and then let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.

and another:

7
21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

and another in 23:

8
 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

all of those time and sequence words before we come to what happens AFTER all of the:

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So you said:

Doesn’t explain a sequential even where the sun is darkened first then Jesus appear on the clouds.

Look at verse 29 and 30, it says EXACTLY that!

You then said:

Because if thats so we just need to look at the sky whether the sun is still shining today, if yes then Jesus wont ever come.

That I do not at all understand what you are saying. The text says that is how it will be, the sun will not give it’s light, it will be darkened. I mean to say yes, if the sun is shining, then He is not coming, that part I am ok with. Howevert the sun WILL go dark, THEN He will come! Right now, where I am, the sun is shining, and Jesus has not returned, if it suddenly goes dark, then I now He is about to return. When the Sun does dark, His return is imminent, however, we are not in the middle of the 7 years yet, so the sun is not about to go dark. This is exactly why the Bible gives all of these signs and clues, so that those who are of the light, will know when He is about to return.

Matt 25:10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And THE DOOR WAS SHUT

Sure, but notice something here, Matthew 25 is a continuation of what Jesus was saying in Matt 24, it is the same discourse.  In face, Matt 25 begins with yet another “then”:

1“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps^a and went to meet the bridegroom.^b

What is the “then” speaking of there? Then, immediately after the tribulation of those days, that is the context. So whatever the parable of the ten virgins is saying, it happens after the tribulation, not before.

It is a lot of work to answer what look like a simple question, but when the asker has not looked at all the relevant texts and understood what they are saying in context and in harmony with other related passages, sometimes explanations have to be long winded, especially when we consider that some reading these threads are no familiar with all the passages.

I apologize to all of those whose eyes glazed over trying to read this reply, but it had to be done to shed sufficient light and not mislead people to faulty conclusions. Most people probably won’t read it, but for those with interest in understanding, I provided this information.

Hartono, a question for you. I notice that you question what I said with "how can". I understand that you do not understand some things, that is true for all of us. What I would like to say, what I would like to ask, what I would like to see you do, is to show me if anything I have said is actually wrong, or contradicts what the Bible says, I understand that it contradicts what some Christians believe, but the beleifs of other Christians, is not what we need to understand, is it? What does the Bible actually say, can be different from what some people suppose it means, right?

[Omegaman 3.0]

13 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Not quite right as that will show that God is unfair then, why wud God save Israel from the devil while other christians be martyred for Jesus in the GT ?

^{Rev 12 : 14}  The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Interesting objection. If it is not quite right, then why does the text says exactly that, all I did was quote it?  I do not generally try to explain questions about why God does anything, He does things for His reasons, and does not always give answers to our questions. Why He does things, you will have to ask Him, I do not know His mind, only what the Bible says. All I know is that the Judge of all the world, does what is right, whether or not you think He is unfair.

You conclude that God is unfair for doing what He says He will do. I believe we're are not in a place to judge God, it is His place to judge us. You know what was unfair? That Jesus, the sinless man, died for my sins! Thank you God, for being unfair, without you, I would be lost!

13 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Not quite right, those martyred in the great trib will be resurrected after the devil is thrown into the abyss and chained a thousand years at the end of the GT. These are the soul under the altar of the 5th seal (the foolish virgins left behind will be taken to the wrong Bridegroom)

Well, I do not know what to tell you there Hartono, the Bible says there is a first resurrection, and that those who died in the tribulation (shown in Rev 20) will be in that resurrection. 

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

It is the rest of the dead, not those in the first resurrection, who go to the second death and the lake of fire, after the 1000 years:

 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. 
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 1 5And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I cannot help it if you do not like it or do not believe it, it is just what the text says.

[Omegaman 3.0]

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Omegaman,

Curious as to why you have 2 groups of "alive" Christians. 

First....the dead

Then....those who are alive at His coming  (1st group of alive)

Then....the living Christians rise to join them (2nd group of alive)

Hi Joe,

I am not sure what you are asking about what I was saying, so I will repeat what I was saying but in different words to try and bring clarity.

Paul was addressing those who were worried about their other Christians who had already died, because they were tempted to or were already grieving about them, since in their minds the dead brethren would miss the resurrection, like those who had no hope (unbelievers).

Paul goes on to say, that when Jesus returns, He will bring those who died in Christ, along with Him as he returns to the earth. The way that will happen is that those formerly dead Christians, will rise from the dead and ascend in their resurrected bodies, to meet Jesus in the air at His 2nd coming.

So, the dead in Christ, now alive again, will rise first. Then those of us who remain, those who are alive when Jesus returns will also go up and meet Jesus and the resurrected Christians in the air as He returns to earth.

We are "caught up" with them, this is the specific verse from where we get our word "rapture", from the text of the Latin Vulgate translation of the passage.

Is that clearer?

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Only the unbelievers will go into the 7 year tribulation. The true born again Christians will be raptured before the 7 year tribulation starts. 

Foolish virgins are believers but left behind too.

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Foolish virgins are believers but left behind too.

Well Noah was left behind, lol, the rest of the world was taken, be careful what you hope for!

 34I say to you, in that night there will be two upon one bed: The one will be taken, and the other will be left. 35There will be two women grinding at the same place: The one will be taken, and the other will be left.”d

37And answering, they say to Him, “Where, Lord?”

And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered together.”

The taken, and the left behind. Which is which? John Walvoord, behaps the greatest pre-trib scholar, believed (and so so I) that this passages is saying that those taken are taken to their destruction. I would rather be left behind, and be with Jesus forever.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

You know, this might be a good time to plug my video series on the imminent return of Jesus. This interested may go watch them at:

those not interested, can go get something to eat, that is what I am going to do!

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Well Noah was left behind, lol, the rest of the world was taken, be careful what you hope for! 

 

Lets say you are boarding a vessel which is about to depart from an island before the island destroyed by volcanic eruption. You only have your family of 8 people with you and leave the inhabitants to be destroyed, are you saying you are left behind on the vessel ?

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

The taken, and the left behind. Which is which? John Walvoord, behaps the greatest pre-trib scholar, believed (and so so I) that this passages is saying that those taken are taken to their destruction. I would rather be left behind, and be with Jesus forever.

While the world is destroyed with the Seals, Trumpets and Vials you prefer to be left behind ? People are going to hide in caves and cracks after the global eruption of the 5th seal, are you safe in your dungeon ?

[Omegaman 3.0]

34 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Lets say you are boarding a vessel which is about to depart from an island before the island destroyed by volcanic eruption. You only have your family of 8 people with you and leave the inhabitants to be destroyed, are you saying you are left behind on the vessel ?

I am not big on hypotheticals, but I do not think that I, or the text are or were unclear. It was Jesus who said it will be like the days of Noah, and mentioned what the people were doing, some were giving in marriage, and the flood came and took them all away! Were were they taken to? Thier destruction, not to safety. Noah and his family stayed on the boat and were safe.

[Omegaman 3.0]

51 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

While the world is destroyed with the Seals, Trumpets and Vials you prefer to be left behind ? People are going to hide in caves and cracks after the global eruption of the 5th seal, are you safe in your dungeon ?

No, because I am not appointed unto wrath, but to salvation, like the Bible says. Terror came upon Egypt, while the Hebrews were protected. Lot was safe from fire and brimstone, he fled the scene, but did not leave the earth. Noah, we just went trough, this is not uncommon that God protects His people, without rapturing them.

Similarly, God has allow prophets, and Christian martyrs to suffer horribly, and the hands of evil people, but you expect Him to change for on generation of believers. I thought you were the one who was accusing God of being unfair, do you not think it is unfair to that He allows His people to suffer in the past and in the present, but to make an exception for a few people in the future? I think that is very inconsistant, and not facing the texts that you know are there, that describes future suffering.

It is the calling of the church to suffer for His sake when necessary. We are not suppose to fear those who can kill the body, but not the soul. (Matt 10:28
We are supposed count it all joy when faced with various troubles. James 1:2
Joyful are Christians when they are counted worthy to suffer for Him. Persecution builds character, strengthens the church, purifies it. Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Luke 6:22. 

However, since the early 1800s, the thought has grown in the church, flourished in the 20th century and continues today, that we no longer want to be happy and content with what God has for us. We say to God: "No thanks Lord, I want to do it my way, not your way, I want blessings and comfort in this life, I do not want to wait for eternity".

"And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

The way we are going, that is a legitimate question!

Are you planning to ever yield to the texts, or will you persist in making God a prisoner of what you wish for? All I see is stubborness. I can remember when I was a pre-tribber also, believe me, it does not hurt to submit to God and His word!