I can’t show God my faith if I don’t do anything

[GandalfTheWise]

A true living saving faith will result in tangible changes in motives, thoughts, and behavior.  Some will occur in an instant and some over time.  I'm not talking about keeping new years resolution type of changes or doing charitable works that any sinner can do to some extent through will-power and determination and sincerity but being transformed so that fruit of the Spirit grows in our lives.   In the long run, this is the ultimate evidence both to ourselves and those around us that Christ is in us and changing us.

Over the years, I've come to see passages regarding works, keeping commands, and lack of sin such as in James and I John as being promises and descriptions of what the Christian life is to be like.   Some want to take these passages as commands we have to follow through will-power and volition.  Some want to explain them away as not meaning what they say so that they are optional in some sense.  I think they are to be taken as both a description and a promise of what God's transformation in us will look like as it goes on.

My sense is that one reason some Christians rebel against believing these types of passages as written is that they want to believe in and teach some form of instant complete assurance of salvation in absence of long term evidence of transformation.  It's one thing to encourage a new believer (or even a not-so-new believer) having doubts that God's work in them will take time.  It's by far another to in essence teach that absence of long-term change is compatible with salvation by always making it optional.

[Starise]

Some Christians are more like managers. They go around trying to manage what everyone  is doing. Managers all alone would be worth less than a cup of coffee unless they have a work force. Other Christians are actually out there doing something.

The ones doing something are too busy doing it to be out telling everyone what they've done. In my experience God sends people into my life that I think He sometimes uses me to relate to. It's isn't like I did much really. Or at least I don't feel I've done very much. I just do what I do and try to be obedient. 

We sometimes view works for the kingdom through a colored lens. Missionaries get highest kudos. Think about this- YOU are a missionary. It won't only be missionaries ( by title) the Lord asks what they have done. Pastors and church leaders are looked at in higher regard so far as service is concerned. Yes they have a tough job, but they instruct US to go use our gifts. The purpose of pastors is to teach, preach, support and otherwise guide . They will be taken to task over what they've actually done one day. 

Christians are like salt out in the world of fruits and vegetables ( and a few nuts) adding some flavor in a good way. Salt is salt  Christians do what Christians do. Let someone else measure what that is. We are all about doing the Father's will. Or we should be.

The Bible says the fields are ready to harvest. There's ALWAYS something to do.  What does that look like? Sometimes it's just being faithful to your calling. Doing what we are supposed to do. The Bible talks about giving God our "reasonable service". I have sometimes felt like maybe what I've done is nothing compared to professional missionaries. Christianity isn't like the trades, where we have specializations we let do the heavy lifting for us. We pay them money, they go out and minister. So when God calls you up front on that big day, what will you say? Giving is a gift too, but it can also foster complacency. It's easy for billionaires to throw large sums of money around. How much of their effort was really involved. Does money save people directly? 

I would love to hear examples of what "doing something" looks like to others. 

[Don19]

2 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

My sense is that one reason some Christians rebel against believing these types of passages as written is that they want to believe in and teach some form of instant complete assurance of salvation in absence of long term evidence of transformation. 

Salvation is fully, finally, and totally  accomplished and assured when we believe in Jesus Christ and receive the witness of the Holy Spirit. Those who are working for assurance are not under a covenant of grace, but a covenant of works and are in the flesh, not the Spirit. This “long-term evidence” business is just fleshy transformation, which is to go the way of Cain and build you house upon sand. This “transformation” can be accomplished by willpower in the flesh; it’s evidence of nothing. It’s idolatry- worshiping the works of your own hands. Does the Father give us a stone if we ask for bread? A serpent if we ask for a fish? A scorpion if we ask for an egg? No!

[Your closest friendnt]

7 hours ago, Don19 said:

 

A very common and false interpretation of James.

James is not saying, and cannot be saying, that works are needed for assurance of salvation, because this assurance is given by the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:16, 1 Thess 1:4-5). No amount of "good works" (which in God's eyes are just filthy rags) can provide evidence of salvation. 

 

 

I believe James is saying simply that Jesus Christ is our good works.

John 14:12:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

See? To the one that believes, the very works that Jesus Christ did are ours. These aren't works of our flesh. Jesus Christ is our complete body of good works. The Father is perfectly pleased with us as sons because we are in the Son of God Jesus Christ. And in the end we will all be judged by works, as the Bible says in many instances. We'll be judged by Jesus Christ. If He is our good works, which He is if our life is hid with Him in God, then our works will be perfect on the day of judgment.

Romans 8:11,15,16. 

¹¹ But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

 

¹⁵ For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

¹⁶ The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

*In the totality of Paul's letters, we learned that Paul was more mature in the faith than some of the disciples who had not lived in Gentiles Nations. 

Paul met some "Gentiles Idolaters" whose way of life can put to shame some of the Jews.

Paul did not preach against charity, but he understood how charity and love for ones neighbors can be used to Judge those who believe in Jesus Christ and put the fear on them making them believe that unless they produced works of charity and devote themselves to good works, they are not Saved, putting the fear of Hell on them, and to make them believe that with their moral living and works of love, they can alleviate the fear of punishment of Hell.

That's why Paul put a lot of effort to highlight that our sins are forgiven in the name of Jesus Christ and that the moment we believe by DEFAULT we have the forgiveness of sins in the blood of Jesus Christ and we are in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and at the time of our death our sins if any are not counted against us and when we believe we are born from above from the Spirit of God the Spirit of adaptation of God which cries from our heart together with our Spirit Abafather.

In two words we are the Spiritual children of God through faith in Jesus Christ and nothing can separate us from him and nothing can be use to judge us out of the Heavenly Inheritance of Jesus Christ.  

Romans 8:16, 17 

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

Edited December 14, 2020 by Your closest friendnt

[GandalfTheWise]

5 minutes ago, Don19 said:

Salvation is fully, finally, and totally  accomplished and assured when we believe in Jesus Christ and receive the witness of the Holy Spirit. Those who are working for assurance are not under a covenant of grace, but a covenant of works and are in the flesh, not the Spirit. This “long-term evidence” business is just fleshy transformation, which is to go the way of Cain and build you house upon sand. This “transformation” can be accomplished by willpower in the flesh; it’s evidence of nothing. It’s idolatry- worshiping the works of your own hands. Does the Father give us a stone if we ask for bread? A serpent if we ask for a fish? A scorpion if we ask for an egg? No!

In my first paragraph which was not quoted, I specifically pointed out that there is a transformation by human effort which is like new years resolutions that anyone can do and leads only to limited external changes.   Scripture clearly points out the things like fruit of the Spirit occur as part of salvation and are a God produced change within us.  This is what I was referring to as part of long-term transformation.  As far as I know, doctrinally speaking, very few Christians would deny that sanctification which produces tangible changes is an integral part of salvation.  Indeed, some Christians would call denial of sanctification with tangible changes a heresy.  

The work of the Holy Spirit will produce changes in our lives which will change our motives, attitudes, feelings, and behavior.  If nothing to little changes in us over the course of years and decades after we are "saved", I'd question whether God did anything at all.   

My observation is that pretty much every Christian I've known has struggled with doubts, sin, and other such things at some point in their lives.  Weeks, months, years, and decades of walking with God and seeing His hand working in our lives and other's lives result in our trust and confidence in Him growing over time.   This is what I'm referring to when talking about assurance.  Most testimonies I've heard from Christians talk about a conversion experience where God becomes real to them and which they point to as when they become Christians.  I think this is what most Christians refer to when they talk about the witness of the Holy Spirit.  But most also talk about at times struggling with doubts and sin, sometimes severely and sometimes for years.  As God works in us and we walk with God, this changes.  Doubts tend to diminish, sin tends to drop away, fruit of the Spirit grows, and we become more and more Christlike.   This is what I'm referring to as long-term transformation.

I've also heard people testify about spiritual experiences which gave them some type of warm fuzzy reaction, gave them a sense God was real, but did not produce transformation.  Often, these were part of the process whereby God was revealing Himself to them that He was real and exists, and then there was a subsequent conversion experience.  How do we distinguish between these preliminary (for lack of a better term) experiences and a real conversion event?  Ultimately, it is by the changes and transformation that occur.  This is not about how well we can set and keep the equivalent of Christian new years resolutions.  It is about observing spiritual fruit starting to sprout and grow in our lives and seeing God do things.  

[Michael37]

7 hours ago, Don19 said:

No amount of "good works" (which in God's eyes are just filthy rags) can provide evidence of salvation. 

I'll let the Scriptures speak to my meaning, which is not your strawman tangent, Don19.  

Joh 15:5-8  I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.  (6)  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  (7)  If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you.  (8)  Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.
 

Heb 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[Don19]

4 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

In my first paragraph which was not quoted, I specifically pointed out that there is a transformation by human effort which is like new years resolutions that anyone can do and leads only to limited external changes.

A false distinction. Converts to false religion can undergo lasting changes in their behavior. It's proof of nothing. A Muslim convert now fasts and prays to Mecca 5x daily his whole life. A Catholic convert now prays the rosary all the time and lives a zealous life. (Rom 10:2: For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.) So the evidence you're seeking is meaningless.

 

4 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

Scripture clearly points out the things like fruit of the Spirit occur as part of salvation and are a God produced change within us.

The fruit of the Spirit comes from obeying the words of the Spirit. It comes from rejoicing in the assurance of salvation. It's not a fleshy transformation.

 

4 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

This is what I was referring to as part of long-term transformation.  As far as I know, doctrinally speaking, very few Christians would deny that sanctification which produces tangible changes is an integral part of salvation.  Indeed, some Christians would call denial of sanctification with tangible changes a heresy.  

"broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat"

 

4 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

Most testimonies I've heard from Christians talk about a conversion experience where God becomes real to them and which they point to as when they become Christians.  I think this is what most Christians refer to when they talk about the witness of the Holy Spirit. 

But that's not exactly what the Bible says about the witness of the Holy Spirit. The Bible says this an earnest (Eph 1:13-14, 2 Cor 1:21-22). An earnest is something real and definite which is given to prove the good intentions of the one giving it. So the Spirit is given in such a way to confirm for us the reality and irrevocability of our salvation when we believe; therefore, it is also called a sealing. This is consistent with other verses like 1 Thess 1:4-5, Rom 8:16, 1 John 4:13, 1 John 5:10. Therefore, it is unnecessary and even counterproductive and legalistic for those who have received the witness of the Holy Spirit to look inwardly for salvation assurance, which can only entail taking our eyes off Jesus Christ and looking to bury our talents in the ground (that is, in the flesh). As Paul asked, rhetorically, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:2) - so works of law can never produce true fruit because fruit requires a seed. That Seed is Christ is us, the hope of glory.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

12 hours ago, Don19 said:

 

A very common and false interpretation of James.

James is not saying, and cannot be saying, that works are needed for assurance of salvation, because this assurance is given by the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:16, 1 Thess 1:4-5).

 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

¹⁵ For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

¹⁶ The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

¹⁷ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

 

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I'll let the Scriptures speak to my meaning, which is not your strawman tangent, Don19.  

Joh 15:5-8  I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.  (6)  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  (7)  If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you.  (8)  Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.
 

Heb 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

*So please tell us what is your fruit that proves that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ and that he has make you a branch of his vine...

And for that reason he has to give you the same lecture as he gave to the twelve in the Gospel of John. 

Because in John 15: Jesus is lecturing those he had made branches of his vine, and he told them in John 14: that if they continued to abide in him as his disciples that they will have the fruit of the vine "HIM), and will do greater works than him. 

Are you a disciple of this kind of Caliper call by Jesus Christ and you are a branch of the vine as a disciple of the Caliper of the twelve and have accepted that you may be demoted from that standing in abiding in your own will as the steward of the one talent.

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I'll let the Scriptures speak to my meaning, which is not your strawman tangent, Don19.  

Joh 15:5-8  I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.  (6)  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  (7)  If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you.  (8)  Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.
 

Heb 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Hebrews 6:9 is something that I have to pay more attention. 

The statement "belived", and then expected from you things that accompany Salvation is telling that is addressing those who are already Saved. 

And he is trying to bring to our attention that he has to deal with people in his congregation that are Saved but their doings do not reflect the right model of someone who is Saved...

And he sound as if he is upset as he had hope that his preaching to them will have a more profound effect...

Sorry for the writer who took over their lives under his wings and had made plans for them.

Did he forget that their lives, their future were hidden in Jesus Christ?  

In his Jelousy for what he wants and accepts for their welfare, did he put too much fertilizer, or too much water, maybe not so clean water...did he stereotype them as a group, and he could not work with them, the same way Jesus does,because he is not Jesus...

Is he substituting him self for Jesus Christ.. 

But he still did not Judge their Salvation but only what he was expecting from them. God bless you for not hiding this scripture, which shows the heart and what he believe that they were saved..

He never use their works to judge their Salvation. 

[Your closest friendnt]

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

 

Joh 15:5-8  I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.  (6)  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  (7)  If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you.  (8)  Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.
 

Heb 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

It's noted that Jesus Christ said something that has has a lot of weight, (he did not say that I gathered them or I sent men to gathered them and cast them into the fire and burn, and that would be alive...not calling them to rehabilitation or repentance or not given them multiple chances and gathered them up and be their teacher...and forgive them)

Jesus Christ said , men will gather them up. 

Jesus Christ emphasizes that it is men who will do that, it is men who will not count them worthy to be call the disciples of the vine...and why because they are not having the fruit of the vine, or men will perceived that they are not having the fruit they want to see in them...

Also are they calling them selves disciples or mature disciples of Jesus Christ, are they still young in the faith and are rushing through...

Are they just imitating what Jesus Christ or the disciples did and are trying to do things according to their will?

For this is the lesson Jesus Christ is telling his disciples. 

He is telling them not to do things according to their own will, but to wait for his leadership and they must submit themselves to his teaching as Paul and the disciples did..

And if they do things as they see fit...the moment Jesus Christ is calling them to follow him, to let go of their own agents, or the agenta others have for them and follow Jesus Christ, as Philip follow him in the dessert and brought forth the fruit with the Ethiopian and all those who believe in Jesus Christ as a result of the Ethiopian's preaching, were added as his fruit...

And he went to the Samaritans where he would not be sent there at that time from the Jerusalem church...because of their doctrine which was about to change by what followed. 

But Philip follow Jesus Christ in Samaria and Jesus Christ was with him, and when the other disciples in Jerusalem shaw the fruit of his mission that Jesus Christ with miracles established his approval of the Samaritans as his own...they did not resist but not all, some still will stay away from the Samaritans because of Coulture because they lived in Jerusalem and had family living under the religious Law of the Jews...

Peter and the Roman Captain Cornelius is another example where Jesus Christ cause it as to come to pass that Peter was the one to bring to him first the Jews in Jerusalem and then the Gentiles, but the Samaritans belong to Philip for Jesus Christ reason of doing things his way...

Paul and the Gentile in Philippi is another Corner Stone, another first, from the vine of Jesus Christ..

It's noted that Jesus never Judge faith in him with the vine and the branches...

He never made it a Salvation judgment as he never Judge anyone at that time, only referred to how people, his believers will Judge those who claimed to be his disciples and do things on borrow time till they are not pleasing or satisfying their audience and they are treated by them, as not having the anointing and they could have have it, but its not the anointing they want or expect from them, and they fire them...