What part of us goes to be with God in death?

[Your closest friendnt]

The author of the OP is a mature believer in Jesus Christ and he is using the passage in the book of ecclesiastes to make a point not of the position of ecclesiastes that everyone after death goes to God.

No this is not his propose, he is filled with the Holy Ghost, it is impossible to suggest anything of this sort.

What he does is stipulating the notion that we as believers in Jesus Christ we will be with God forever and  without the need of our physical bodies.

That our physical bodies are not needed in Heaven.

 There was need for them as long as we lived on earth and before we died.

The OP has research and he knows that when the Jews use the word Spirit they include the spiritual man as a whole without his body of flesh, the part that is going back to earth in general without referring to those who are burned or eaten by vultures, and other beasts (or even another human) and digested...gross as it sounds that what has happened to many, from the wars they were left to be in the open field and became food to the wild beasts. 

It is not an issue of Spirit and Soul, not it is not. 

We can take note when Jesus Christ suddenly appeared in the mist of the disciples he said to them.

Peace be with you, do not be afraid, because they thought they were seeing his Spirit.

As in Jesus Christ without his body.

And Jesus Christ said: come and touch me, feel my flesh and my bones, it is me I am not a Spirit, I am in my body .

And he further identified himself to them with the marks on his feet and hands and he asked them to give him some of their food to eat.

So later they are still not wondering in different directions because they have their bread infront of them minus the part they gave Jesus Christ to eat.

The whole event it happened it was not just a dream.

Later Jesus said to Philip who had insisted that it was the Spirit of Jesus they were seeing.

And when Jesus Christ appeared to them again in Philip's presence he said to Philip " I am not a Spirit come and feel my wouldst. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Frits]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

Then there appears not to be any separation or distinction between spirit and body. The body of flesh and blood is transformed, the flesh left to decay but that is not the whole of our body. The body buried is raised, it is "sown" in corruption but raised incorruptible.....

.....but it is still a body. 

Yes?

No, your suggestions and suspicions are unfortunately incorrect. Once the buried physical body has gone into dissolution, sometimes even hundreds of years ago, it has disappeared for good.  Paul uses the word 'fool' here, for those who think or suppose the old physical body comes back! (1Cor.15:36).
The body that is resurrected is the spiritual (superior) body, which has the ability to take on a form in 'flesh and bones'. (Lk.24:39)
Your thoughts are not conclusive, because you start from only 1 body, the material.  But there is a second body, that is the better spiritual body that has heavenly qualities.
With the Lord Jesus his dead physical body was 'swallowed up in victory' at his resurrection from the dead on the third day.  He then appeared to His disciples in His heavenly body, allowing Him to enter a space with His flesh while the doors were closed. (Jh.20:19)
He also sometimes had an unrecognizable appearance for them. (Jh.20:15)
The heavenly body belongs to us just as the material body belongs to us, but the natural is first and then the spiritual.  (1Cor.15:46)

God bless.

[Your closest friendnt]

Revelation 6:7,8

7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!”

 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. 

 

Revelation 20:13

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

[R. Hartono]

3 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

No One went to heaven before Jesus's Ressurection because no one was washed by the blood, and made righteous.  But on that day  Paradise, the dwelling of the righteous who died before Christ....was empty

If they are alrdy in heaven its no use to raise the dead n then rapture them as per 1 Thes 4:16.

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

There are a lot of issues at hand, and what shall we do dig into everyone's philosophy? 

It's good to know something about their culture, which underlines their beliefs. 

If we follow the events with Adam and Eve , and the events with Abel and Cain, we have a lot on our plate to understand that Abel continue to live after his death.

God is acting and speaking in a way that Abel is not with him.

This is the highlight of those events.

Abel the seed of Adam and Eve the second born was accepted by God prior to his death.

That he died soon after God gave his witness that he is his beloved person at that time,

Abel was not in any disobedience to God, born in the world and was taught to understand right from wrong, or was born in a different world than the world Adam and Eve were "born", as we know how they came into existence. 

At the death of Abel we come to understand what God had acknowledged earlier. 

That man apart from eating from the tree of Life he cannot be with God, he has to live in a state being separated from God. 

In this Life God could approach man to help them and guide them and acknowledge them and their standing towards him. He was their God as long as they were alive.

But at the time of their death all ended. 

Upon their death they were under the God of the dead.  

Without an individual judgment but under the default inheritance from the result of Adam's disobedience. 

Mankind was under the Inheritance of Adam's disobedience, the Death Inheritance. 

The scriptures has put it this way;

Hades is Following Death, when death comes to a man only Hades is there to take him.

The above took place before Jesus Christ. 

*** From Adam till Jesus Christ with the exception of Abraham and his generational children.

**** Till the time of Abraham where Hades is not there to take Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his descendants. 

Who at the time of their death were still alive to God. And their place after their death was their Inheritance the Bossom of Abraham in Sheol. 

A place in the earth but separated from the rest if the world who were in Hades. 

And this was the Inheritance of the people of God in the righteousness of Abraham and later in the righteousness according to the Law of Moses.

Till the time of Jesus Christ death when God in Jesus Christ reconciled the world unto himself. 

        *****

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

Whether anyone wants to do so or not that is invariably what happens. 

The rest of your post is very much your "philosophy." Where it bears integrity with scripture it is to be commended and we can find common ground from which to work as the conversation - the topical conversation - unfolds. Where it does not bear consistency with scripture it's just philosophy, and as such inclined to foster disagreement regardless of its actual content. 

For example, 

The statement, "Hades is Following Death, when death comes to a man only Hades is there to take him," is not correct if it is understood to say there is a lesser god named Hades who takes dead people to live underground in a miserable conscious life in his kingdom. That is not what Jesus taught! 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Revelation 6:7,8

7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!”

 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. 

 

Revelation 20:13

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Revelection 1:18 

KJ21

I am He that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen, and have the keys of hell and of death.

ASV

and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

AMP

and the Ever-living One [living in and beyond all time and space]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of [absolute control and victory over] death and of Hades (the realm of the dead).

AMPC

And the Ever-living One [I am living in the eternity of the eternities]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades (the realm of the dead).

Edited January 29, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, Starise said:

A couple of questions that I think are relevant. 

Were we originally intended to die? IOW Would Adam and Eve have lived forever in their present states before the fall? 

If you say no, this raises a few additional thoughts. Obviously Adam and Eve were made to reproduce and even told to do so by God. So if men had not sinned, yet still reproduced no men would ever die meaning there would be too many men on Earth.How do you reconcile that?

Also, If you say no, this means that death as a curse from God is unnatural. We were never intended to be in any way "separated". One of the punishments for sin was death according to Genesis which leaves a bit of a conundrum for the first thought( what to do with all those people). Possibly the process or cyclical nature of our earthly transition into our heavenly transition was greatly changed. IOW the process wasn't a curse then as it was after the fall of man into sin. Same as the process of childbirth wasn't a curse to women before the fall. 

If this is true, then before the fall we might have still at some point transitioned in a much better way. This would infer that there could have been a transition that wasn't "death", yet it still resulted in some sort of change at life's end on earth. Everything in creation on earth is cyclic. Why would men be any different? Did trees live forever? Did animals live forever? No.

This idea would make the process of separation of the soul from the physical body natural as opposed to unnatural after men sinned. If the results of the separation are in fact seen as natural or cyclic, then it isn't a stretch to see our souls with the ability to function in another dimension retaining all of our "senses" on some other level.

Thoughts?

 

Hi Starise,

This is well beyond my pay grade pertaining to death, the Garden of Eden, and Adam & Eve. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? We know Adam and the animals were created fully mature. As with the fruit trees complete with tree rings and hanging fruit, grains and vegetables in the garden of Eden. What were they to eat if it wasn't already there and mature?

The earth and its climate had to be totally different than today. That's evidenced by human and animal and plant size and life spans prior to and after the flood. If there was NO death of anything prior to the fall, how did plant life produce anything from the sterile soil?

Sterile soil is the absence of microbes breaking down dead things, turning dead matter into nutrients for plant function and growth. Insect soil aeration and breaking down of dead things and deceased insect generations are critical to fertile soil and management. Seed has to die before they germinate and spring to life. 

Another thought: Adams and Eve were 100% human flesh and blood, not immortal, nor did they have glorified bodies. But, they were created "sinless" and needed access to the "Tree of Life", evidently to maintain eternal life. 

Question: Being 100% flesh, blood and bone; what would have happened if Adam fell off a cliff, or got a deep gash and bled out? 

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated : "The story of poor Lazarus n the rich man told us that Abraham is in gehena n there is a gap dividing the good n the sinners."

 Lk. 16:19-31 is most definitely an allegory or a parable. This is why many become confused. Abraham, along with all who died in Christ, are with Him in heaven. Please, if there is any place in the Bible where saved souls are NOT with Jesus I would like to see it. 

I read that the soul of the unsaved is destroyed at death, because they have not the gift of eternal life. 

If your soul is placed with Abraham in gehena it means Jesus has placed you in safety at temporary dwelling.

Daniel was told to rest until the end of time : Daniel 12:13 .....you will rest n rise for ur inheritance (heaven) at the end of days. (1 Thes 4:16).

There are saint souls who live in gehena under the earth as written in Revelation 5:3 ...there is no one in heaven or on the earth or UNDER THE EARTH who can open the seal.

Edited January 29, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Frits]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

You said Jesus had a body and when I asked about that you confirmed it. Jesus' body di not disappear for good. In Jesus' case, there was no body in the grave.

Well, that is not what 1 Corinthians 15:36 says. It says it does not come to life unless it dies. That would indicate it does come back. Go back a reread the verse. 

Besides, I never said the body "comes back." I said it was transformed. It is sown in corruption and dishonor and weakness; it is raised in incorruption, honor, and power. It is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body. This is plainly stated in the very same chapter just a few verses later (1 Cor. 15:42-44). 

To what does the word "it" refer? 

The body! 

note: the word it is singular, not plural.

My suggestions and suspicions are not incorrect; they come straight out of God's word plainly written, plainly read. 

Not quite correct. I am not starting from only 1 body, the material body. The body of flesh is not just flesh. Jesus' resurrected body has flesh. Jesus is a life-giving spirit in a spiritual body that has flesh. 

This is where our discussion is going to break down because the word "second" has not been proven; it has been assumed. 

Jesus had a spiritual body in Hades. You agreed to that fact.
The very verse you cite to say the physical does not come back says exactly the opposite. It must die to be made alive.
The very chapter from which that verse comes speaks of a single, singular body. The body sown is raised. 
Jesus' body did not remain in the tomb. There's no report of two bodies, a first one and a second one. 

 

The case for a second body has not been made. 

You say:
"Jesus' body di not disapear for good"

Indeed, I had also said,
'Once the buried physical body has gone into dissolution'.
With the Lord Jesus there was no question of dissolution, because with that the Scriptures had to be fulfilled.

'Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.' (Act 2:27)

This was foretold in Ps.16:10.

I am now going to put your misconception once again next to the truth of the Bible, then we will see the difference!

You say:
"In Jesus' case, there was no body in the grave."

The Bible says:
'And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.' (Lk.23:55)
 

"It says it does not come to life unless it dies. That would indicate it does come back."

The limitations of the physical body are released to enable the presence of the heavenly body.
For the material is temporary but the spiritual is eternal.  (2Cor.4:18)
This happened to many billions of people when they lost their physical body at death, and were left with the spiritual body.  (Read Lk.16)
But with the Lord Jesus this happened - and in the completion also with the remaining Christians on earth - when His material body was absorbed (swallowed up) by the heavenly.
 

"That would indicate it does come back." ..."Besides, I never said the body "comes back."

You have no opinion of your own, but these two sentences show your insecurity and lack of insight on this subject.
Isn't your advice to me "Go back a reread the verse", therefore a little overbearing?
 

"To what does the word "it" refer? The body! 
note: the word it is singular, not plural."

Of course this word is singular. After all, in order to distinguish both bodies you speak either about the material or about the spiritual body, there is only 1 copy of both.

The Bible says:
'There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1Cor.15:44)

Edited January 29, 2021 by Frits

[Wesley L]

19 hours ago, Frits said:

Hi Wesley,

Do you realize that if you sleep you're not dead? And if you die as a Christian, your physical body does die, but your soul and your spirit do not die but live on with the Lord Jesus.
Also, your soul is not in a 'soul sleep', but you can perceive and communicate with your spiritual body.
Look at Moses (and Elijah), he had died but he met the Lord Jesus on the mountain, while this was not yet the resurrection.

God bless.

Yes, I understand that the body is dead and that the soul goes back to the Lord.
I also understand that the bible uses sleeping for being dead as a metaphor.

The thing is, I believe that we won't be "waiting" while being dead or while being back to the Lord. Asleep as said in the bible, I understood it as being unaware of the passing of time. If no time has passed from the point of view of the deceased born again believer. The moment he dies is the moment he will be meeting the Lord in the air.

About Moses and Elijah meeting Jesus on the mountain, that is certainly a good point. I am aware that I may be wrong. And I am still searching and praying for the truth.

So on the other hand. If the souls of born again believers goes to the current heaven, waiting. How to explain being asleep as described by the bible?

 

[Frits]

1 hour ago, Wesley L said:

Yes, I understand that the body is dead and that the soul goes back to the Lord.
I also understand that the bible uses sleeping for being dead as a metaphor.

The thing is, I believe that we won't be "waiting" while being dead or while being back to the Lord. Asleep as said in the bible, I understood it as being unaware of the passing of time. If no time has passed from the point of view of the deceased born again believer. The moment he dies is the moment he will be meeting the Lord in the air.

About Moses and Elijah meeting Jesus on the mountain, that is certainly a good point. I am aware that I may be wrong. And I am still searching and praying for the truth.

So on the other hand. If the souls of born again believers goes to the current heaven, waiting. How to explain being asleep as described by the bible?

 

No Wesley you're not wrong, you see it very well.
The 'sleeping' used by the Lord Jesus is indeed a metaphor. How should He have expressed this otherwise?  The souls of the daughter of Jairus (Mt.9:24) and of Lazarus (Jh.11:11) were not 'dead' to God, for all righteous live unto Him. (Lk.20:38)
Those who sleep have withdrawn from their work and are no longer active in the visible world, but he can still experience all kinds of things in the spirit.  Sometimes the Christian even gets a dream from God the Father or an angel appears in his sleep. (Mt.2:13, Act 2:17)
So it is with the righteous children of God when they die: they put off their earthly troubles and rest, but their works follow with them.

'And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.' (Rev.14:13)

May the Lord Jesus bless you bro.