The Law Of Moses

[Trust & Obey]

A men, Mikeyjay!

There are a few denominations that are looking to the Old Covenant and haven't realized the blessing of rest in Christ.

Are they any less saved? Not if they aren't looking to those laws for salvation and are instead looking to Jesus. But, they do place unnecessary burdens upon themselves that Christ has not placed there.

Christ is the end of the law for everyone who believes.

Rom 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thankyou, thankyou...if anyone reads the NT in honesty...how could anyone still hold to the belief that a believer in Christ must obey the Law??? I don't see that anywhere. The NT Law is one of faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

God bless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

halifax, it happened to the 1st century Church, too.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

I'm not accusing anyone of being "false brethren" here, but there are the same elements at work here as there was then.

And, Paul lamented over this very thing:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

I'm taking off for a few days on business and will return in a few days.

God bless you all!

[halifaxchristian]

For you whom still live according to the OT Law...if I ever meet any of you...you'd better have a beard, the appropriate garments, and no hot dogs in your fridge... or, quite frankly, I think I'm gonna be shouting "hypocrite".

God bless.

[Trust & Obey]

Believe it or not, at this point I'm ready to just throw my hands up and say "whatever!"

Jesus Christ has come into my life and transformed me into a new creature. I have been born again by His Spirit. I have been sealed unto the day of redemption.

Are we now going to try and improve upon that with observance of the Law?

So, is it "Jesus + observance of the Law" that now saves?

If anyone thinks so they nead to read the epistles of Galatians and Romans a few times.

[halifaxchristian]

Believe it or not, at this point I'm ready to just throw my hands up and say "whatever!"

Jesus Christ has come into my life and transformed me into a new creature. I have been born again by His Spirit. I have been sealed unto the day of redemption.

Are we now going to try and improve upon that with observance of the Law?

So, is it "Jesus + observance of the Law" that now saves?

If anyone thinks so they nead to read the epistles of Galatians and Romans a few times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thankyou trust and obey...doesn't the Word say to admonish someone twice and then let them be??? I think that we should do this now. I'm done. They know, they heard us, they have free will, faith, and a Bible...the Holy Spirit will do His job.

God bless.

[M45510G1C]

For you whom still live according to the OT Law...if I ever meet any of you...you'd better have a beard, the appropriate garments, and no hot dogs in your fridge... or, quite frankly, I think I'm gonna be shouting "hypocrite".

God bless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Check check...and well, I can promise you that in the unlikely event you were to find hot dogs in my fridge they would most certainly be beef.

So, is it "Jesus + observance of the Law" that now saves?

I speak only for myself. I beleive that faith in the Messiah is most certainly what saves us. We all transgress the Law. However, G-d would very much like us to walk according to His instruction (His Torah). Yeshua said:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

and I believe is was Torah to which He was referring here.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

This is a restatement of the original problem; some people came from Jerusalem and taught that circumcision of Gentiles was needed to satisfy the Torah. "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved" (Acts 15:1). No mention was made of keeping the entire Torah by these men.

The Greek: legontes peritemnesthai kai terein ton nomon literally reads, "saying to be circumcised and so to keep the Law." The grammar in this verse makes it clear that the last part of the phrase (terein ton nomon-"to keep the Law") refers to a one time act. The Greek conjunction kai ("and so") is used here to emphasize the result of the preceding action peritemnesthai ("to be circumcised"). For the Gentiles, "to be circumcised" would enable them "to keep the Law." The Jewish men who had come to Antioch were simply teaching that it was necessary to circumcise the Gentiles in order to conform to the Torah. The subject was NOT the entire Law, but a single issue.

I don't think that anyone is here preaching that we must keep Torah to be saved. However, it is a wonderful thing to do. It is also something which we are free to do in Messiah. Keeping Torah is about being in love, not being in bondage. If you cannot understand that then it is best that you not keep Torah.

[apothanein kerdos]

I'm not gonna debate this as people don't seem to wanna listen.  However, your interpretation of Romans 10:4 is no good.

From http://www.yashanet.com/studies/romstudy/text10a.htm

4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

This is perhaps the most horribly translated verse in the "New Testament," and appears this way in almost every edition of Christian Bibles. The phrase "end of the law" should be translated along the lines of, "goal of the Torah," based on what Paul has been discussing to this point. The word "end" in verse 4, is telos in the Greek. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (which is incidentally, a "Protestant" work), correctly states that telos in Romans 10:4, should be defined as, "the final issue or result of a state or process."

Christian translators have instead inserted the ambiguous phrase, "end of the law," to lend support to the false view that Paul taught that the Torah was done away with by Yeshua's work. Some, such as the New English Bible, go as far as saying, "For Christ ends the law and brings righteousness for everyone who has faith."1

Faith in Yeshua does not end the "law" (Romans 3:31, Matthew 5:17-21). Paul has already said in his letter that the Torah witnesses to the righteousness of God. The context of the entire Romans letter to this point and forward, is that if a person was/is following Torah in faith, that person will recognize Yeshua as the Messiah as He is the Torah in the flesh -- the goal of the Torah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"End" in the Greek is an emphatic. The proper translation into English is "termination". To indicate otherwise it to say that our righteousness depends on if we follow the law or not. Our righteousness relies no longer on the law (for the law never brought rightouesness) but instead on our belief in Christ. In order to be righteous we do not have to follow the law, but instead believe in Christ.

[Remnantrob]

The law pointed us to righteousness and still does today. To those before Christ.......the sacrificial lamb. To us, the LAMB OF GOD. Sin is the transgression of the Law and so it shows us where we need to go if we are to obtain righteousness.

[apothanein kerdos]

The law pointed us to righteousness and still does today.  To those before Christ.......the sacrificial lamb.  To us, the LAMB OF GOD.  Sin is the transgression of the Law and so it shows us where we need to go if we are to obtain righteousness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is contrary to the Bible and is exactly what Paul and Christ taught against. Our righteousness is found in Christ. What you said is the Gospel Paul was speaking of in Galatians 1:8, saying if anyone taught it they were to be eternally condemned. "Converted" Jews were in Galatia teaching that in order to be saved one had to follow the Torah laws, that righteousness was found in following the Torah. Paul condemns this, saying anyone teaching it is to be eternally condemned. Again, Romans 10:5 states very clearly, especially in appealing to the Greek, that Christ is the termination of the law, that our righteousness is no longer found in the law but in our belief in Christ.

[halifaxchristian]

For you whom still live according to the OT Law...if I ever meet any of you...you'd better have a beard, the appropriate garments, and no hot dogs in your fridge... or, quite frankly, I think I'm gonna be shouting "hypocrite".

God bless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Check check...and well, I can promise you that in the unlikely event you were to find hot dogs in my fridge they would most certainly be beef.

So, is it "Jesus + observance of the Law" that now saves?

I speak only for myself. I beleive that faith in the Messiah is most certainly what saves us. We all transgress the Law. However, G-d would very much like us to walk according to His instruction (His Torah). Yeshua said:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

and I believe is was Torah to which He was referring here.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

This is a restatement of the original problem; some people came from Jerusalem and taught that circumcision of Gentiles was needed to satisfy the Torah. "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved" (Acts 15:1). No mention was made of keeping the entire Torah by these men.

The Greek: legontes peritemnesthai kai terein ton nomon literally reads, "saying to be circumcised and so to keep the Law." The grammar in this verse makes it clear that the last part of the phrase (terein ton nomon-"to keep the Law") refers to a one time act. The Greek conjunction kai ("and so") is used here to emphasize the result of the preceding action peritemnesthai ("to be circumcised"). For the Gentiles, "to be circumcised" would enable them "to keep the Law." The Jewish men who had come to Antioch were simply teaching that it was necessary to circumcise the Gentiles in order to conform to the Torah. The subject was NOT the entire Law, but a single issue.

I don't think that anyone is here preaching that we must keep Torah to be saved. However, it is a wonderful thing to do. It is also something which we are free to do in Messiah. Keeping Torah is about being in love, not being in bondage. If you cannot understand that then it is best that you not keep Torah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your approach here seems Biblical. If you want to keep the Torah by faith...I see nothing wrong with that. But for people to think that you must keep the Torah to be saved...I believe that is a grave deception. God bless you and thankyou for clarifying your position!!!

[M45510G1C]

"End" in the Greek is an emphatic. The proper translation into English is "termination". To indicate otherwise it to say that our righteousness depends on if we follow the law or not. Our righteousness relies no longer on the law (for the law never brought rightouesness) but instead on our belief in Christ. In order to be righteous we do not have to follow the law, but instead believe in Christ.

With all due respect, this statement is contradictory (bolded). Whether or not it is emphatic has little to do with the argument. While it may seem to fit with the following "TOU KATARGOUMENOU" as "termination" it does not fit into the broader context. The system of priesthood/sacrifice pre-Messiah stood as a sort of veil between man and communion with the almighty Himself. There are a lot of parallels here (Holy of Holies, Moses' veil, etc. which I do not care to discuss at the moment). Messiah was the goal, the full effect if you will, in that it is in Him and Him alone that we are able to have a relationship with G-d. We no longer need the imperfect priest to atone for us for we have THE perfect priest who has atoned for us once and for all (hallelujah!). The veil has been torn and the Law has seen its completion, its goal, but most certainly not it's cessation. We do live under grace, we have been led out of bondage (more of those parallels here), that bondage being sin. We are now free men!

Rom. 6:15

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.