Women forced to keep silence in Church

[Marathoner]

Great topic, and I appreciate what Justin has shared with us here. Seeing as how God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), we know that matters of this flesh such as nationality or ethnicity (there is no Jew nor Greek in Jesus Christ), social status (there is no slave nor free), and even sex (there is no male or female in Christ) are not cause for any of the holy ones of the Lord to be silenced. Well done.  

Edited February 4, 2021 by Marathoner
typo

[Paul James]

32 minutes ago, Paul James said:

 

I removed this post because I put the correct link to the M.A. thesis in my previous post.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Paul James

[Starise]

I thought the article posted by Justin was interesting and informative. I knew there were some errors in scripture copy. Had no idea it affected this subject so much.

 I remember in a Sunday school class I once attended there was a woman there who pretty much commandeered the whole class. Every time she raised her hand I could see the pastor roll his eyes. I have seen both women and men have both positive and negative effects on a congregation. One woman complained about another woman's hat among other things and caused a few others there to leave because of her attitude and negativity.

There are strong personalities as I refer to them and weaker more accommodating personalities. I would classify some of these people as disruptive to church services. Always making some kind of trouble or gossiping about others or demanding a center of attention. Often this behavior was left unchecked because she was so and so's wife or people didn't want to bother confronting a bully.

This might sound as if I have something against women. I don't. Not at all. I think they should do whatever the Lord lays on their hearts to do in church if it ENCOURAGES and BUILDS up the church. OTOH if it disrupts, creates confusion, causes dissension I see it no different than a man doing those same things.

What am I saying here? Sometimes leadership has to unfortunately confront these things or risk damage to their congregations. Men cause plenty of problems too so I'm not picking on any particular sex. I guess my main point is speaking in church is not a free for all for women or men. It is to be taken seriously. It must be done in the right spirit by the people the Lord calls to do it.

[Riverwalker]

34 minutes ago, Paul James said:

It was a bit of an eye opener to discover how anti-woman ministry-wise the KJV is.  It is because the manuscripts contributing to it were meddled with in the Second Century to make it appear that Paul taught that women should be silent and have no part in the teaching, preaching, prophetic ministry of the church, when such was not the case.

Yes the KJV was flavored a little bit with the times they were in, which is why I go to the amplified 

1 Corinthians 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says. 35 If there is anything they want to learn [that is, if they have questions about anything being said or taught], they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to talk in church. (amp)

Which makes it more of a procedural issue, than a misogynistic issue...which makes sense as this whole chapter is about doing things decently in order (not speaking in tongues unless you also have the interpretation et al)  and he ends the chapter with

 40 But all things must be done appropriately and in an orderly manner. (amp)

What we cannot argue is that this was put in the Word as God's will. Otherwise the whole bible becomes suspect because we now live in a day and a culture that no longer accepts the "subordinance" of women in the marriage relationship and frankly is emasculating men. In all things one leads and one follows, and it supposed to be the man who leads, but society has set about to neuter men and the lines become fuzzy.  

Side note: It was a male run tobacco company who made women's cigarettes and told them you've come a long way baby. And many of those women have died from cancer.

[Paul James]

It is interesting that none of the church fathers before the Second Century AD taught that women should be silent in churches.  The first church father to teach it was Tertullian late in the Second Century.   The teaching existed only in the Western Latin churches where the leadership was coming from Rome.  The Eastern churches did not prohibit women having verbal ministry.  This is because the Greek manuscripts copied by the Eastern churches were not tampered with in the same way that the Latin editors and commentators tampered with those used by the Latin churches.   It is also interesting to note that the Latin Vulgate, of which the KJV is largely based on, contains the redacted text and therefore should not be relied upon to determine the true Scriptural basis for women having to be silent in churches or for the church to prohibit women being elders and pastors.  Translations of the Bible based on Eastern manuscripts without the redactions would be more reliable.

[Waggles]

Too much theology makes people unwise and possibly unbelievers. 

People with lots of theology do not believe the truth of scripture -Mark 16:15-20 - and likewise falsely claim that these verses are scribe additions and not God given.

Yes we know that there are some interpolations and a verse that has been added into 1John 5 but there are sufficient manuscripts to determine additional material by scribes.

Also Ivan Panin who used the Bible Numerics of the original Greek text has given us a New Testament translation (1914) wherein every word and verse is proven by the numerics of the Greek text.

Matthew 28:19 is true and correct

Mark 16:15-20 is God given and belongs in the scriptures

Acts 8:37 is omitted

Now Ivan Panin's "The New Testament From The Greek Text As Established By Bible Numerics" contains the following:

1Co 14:33  for *God is not a God of confusion, but of peace), as in all the churches of the saints. 
1Co 14:34  Let the women be silent in the churches: for it is not permitted to them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 
1Co 14:35  And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in church. 
1Co 14:36  What, is it from you that the word of *God went forth, or came it unto you alone? 

God seals his word from dangers of theology.

The verses in dispute in 1Corinthians 14 are doctrinally consistent with the teachings of other scripture in the NT; such as:

Eph 5:22  *Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord, 
Eph 5:23  because the husband is the wife’s head as also the Christ is head of the church, himself saviour of the body. 
Eph 5:24  But as the church is subject to the Christ, so the wives be also to their husbands in everything. 

[Riverwalker]

13 minutes ago, Paul James said:

It is interesting that none of the church fathers before the Second Century AD taught that women should be silent in churches.  The first church father to teach it was Tertullian late in the Second Century.   The teaching existed only in the Western Latin churches where the leadership was coming from Rome.  The Eastern churches did not prohibit women having verbal ministry.  This is because the Greek manuscripts copied by the Eastern churches were not tampered with in the same way that the Latin editors and commentators tampered with those used by the Latin churches.   It is also interesting to note that the Latin Vulgate, of which the KJV is largely based on, contains the redacted text and therefore should not be relied upon to determine the true Scriptural basis for women having to be silent in churches or for the church to prohibit women being elders and pastors.  Translations of the Bible based on Eastern manuscripts without the redactions would be more reliable.

This passage is NOT about ministry. its about disrupting services

There is a passage that says women should not teach or be in authority over men, but that does not cover many ministries...Evangelism Preaching, Exhortation. Prophecy....

 

And again GOD put this in his bible. It is sacrosanct. One of those stumbling blocks for many

Edited February 4, 2021 by Riverwalker

[Starise]

It's interesting. MOST women I have come across have no interest in the kinds of positions talked about here. One point blank told me she was glad to be where she was. Most often in my experience these are the kinds of women I come across. Not saying it's a sin for a woman to have up front ministry aspirations. This is just my experience. 

There seems to be one or two strong willed women in every church I have ever been in. This would be out of hundreds of women. Strong willed meaning they just manipulate and mow over people to get whatever they were after.

Is that really saying anything significant? I don't know. It's just my experience. Most would RATHER be leading kids in Sunday school or doing things in the church that help out behind the scenes more.

MOST are not like my more negative descriptions.

[Paul James]

2 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

Yes the KJV was flavored a little bit with the times they were in, which is why I go to the amplified 

1 Corinthians 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says. 35 If there is anything they want to learn [that is, if they have questions about anything being said or taught], they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to talk in church. (amp)

Which makes it more of a procedural issue, than a misogynistic issue...which makes sense as this whole chapter is about doing things decently in order (not speaking in tongues unless you also have the interpretation et al)  and he ends the chapter with

 40 But all things must be done appropriately and in an orderly manner. (amp)

What we cannot argue is that this was put in the Word as God's will. Otherwise the whole bible becomes suspect because we now live in a day and a culture that no longer accepts the "subordinance" of women in the marriage relationship and frankly is emasculating men. In all things one leads and one follows, and it supposed to be the man who leads, but society has set about to neuter men and the lines become fuzzy.  

Side note: It was a male run tobacco company who made women's cigarettes and told them you've come a long way baby. And many of those women have died from cancer.

I have provided a link to an excellent M.A. thesis on the topic, and it is worth a read.  The author goes into the topic very thoroughly and clarifies some significant points of debate.

One good point that he makes is that Paul's instruction  was specifically targeted towards the particular problem in the Corinthians church, and not for all women in every church.   He says that the instruction was there to bring order in the church, and it was directed at married women who were loudly questioning and challenging prophecies that were given in the church.   So, in that context, instead of disrupting services by loud questions and objections to what was being preached and prophesied, the married women should keep silent and ask their husbands at home.  Unmarried women did not disrupt the services in the same way, so Paul had different instructions for them as we see in 1 Corinthians 11, where he approved of them prophesying in the services.

In fact, the manuscripts contributing to the Latin translations were edited in the Second Century AD to comply with Roman social standards which put women in second place.  So, the teaching about women being silent in churches is a Roman Catholic doctrine resulting from the manuscripts being altered by Western Latin church commentators to make it appear that it was God's will for women not to share the preaching and prophesying ministry of the church.

It is also interesting to note that during the Second Century, the church went from being Spirit-led to literature-led, and the interpretation of the literature, ie: the written Scriptures was put into the hands of "authorised" leaders, and out of the hands of the common members.  These leaders were educated in Latin, while most of the members weren't, so the control of worship and ministry was under the control of those "authorised" ones who evolved into Roman Catholic priests

What I find interesting about this is that it appears that those who base their doctrine on the written Scriptures and are adamant about the literal wording of it, may very well be literature based believers instead of Spirit-led.  I know that this will generate some debate, and it will be interesting to see the responses.

[Riverwalker]

3 minutes ago, Starise said:

It's interesting. MOST women I have come across have no interest in the kinds of positions talked about here. One point blank told me she was glad to be where she was. Most often in my experience these are the kinds of women I come across. Not saying it's a sin for a woman to have up front ministry aspirations. This is just my experience. 

There seems to be one or two strong willed women in every church I have ever been in. This would be out of hundreds of women. Strong willed meaning they just manipulate and mow over people to get whatever they were after.

Is that really saying anything significant? I don't know. It's just my experience. Most would RATHER be leading kids in Sunday school or doing things in the church that help out behind the scenes more.

MOST are not like my more negative descriptions.

I knew a woman who was like that, and she was in a leadership role in the church, one day there was supposed to be a special minister coming to the church who was supposed to have  a gift that got people drunk in the spirit (Yeah I know...I stopped going to that church)  and she literally chased everyone who got their early out of the front row so she and her friends could be up from and get the most "Drunk"  I proceeded to watch the most flesh driven hour of my life, disgusted to the point that I had to ask forgiveness.