Women forced to keep silence in Church

[Riverwalker]

9 minutes ago, Paul James said:

I have provided a link to an excellent M.A. thesis on the topic, and it is worth a read.  The author goes into the topic very thoroughly and clarifies some significant points of debate.

One good point that he makes is that Paul's instruction  was specifically targeted towards the particular problem in the Corinthians church, and not for all women in every church.   He says that the instruction was there to bring order in the church, and it was directed at married women who were loudly questioning and challenging prophecies that were given in the church.   So, in that context, instead of disrupting services by loud questions and objections to what was being preached and prophesied, the married women should keep silent and ask their husbands at home.  Unmarried women did not disrupt the services in the same way, so Paul had different instructions for them as we see in 1 Corinthians 11, where he approved of them prophesying in the services.

In fact, the manuscripts contributing to the Latin translations were edited in the Second Century AD to comply with Roman social standards which put women in second place.  So, the teaching about women being silent in churches is a Roman Catholic doctrine resulting from the manuscripts being altered by Western Latin church commentators to make it appear that it was God's will for women not to share the preaching and prophesying ministry of the church.

It is also interesting to note that during the Second Century, the church went from being Spirit-led to literature-led, and the interpretation of the literature, ie: the written Scriptures was put into the hands of "authorised" leaders, and out of the hands of the common members.  These leaders were educated in Latin, while most of the members weren't, so the control of worship and ministry was under the control of those "authorised" ones who evolved into Roman Catholic priests

What I find interesting about this is that it appears that those who base their doctrine on the written Scriptures and are adamant about the literal wording of it, may very well be literature based believers instead of Spirit-led.  I know that this will generate some debate, and it will be interesting to see the responses.

I have heard all the arguments and I simply cannot allow that God would let his word, through which he saved thousands be monkeyed with.  Yes it might have been only for that church, but God saw fit that we ALL saw it. The bible is the God inspired word of God and can only be interpreted by the bible.  You start bringing outside sources, authorities and theories of men, you dilute the pure word of God.

It says what it says and it is there for a reason. Yes I know it goes against all modern sensibilities...but the bible does that quite a bit. 

2nd Corinthians 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Riverwalker

[Riverwalker]

By the way James Paul  your use of the word "Forced" here be-speaks of some emotions. It implies servitude. Every one is free to follow or disregard the word of God at their pleasure

[Paul James]

27 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

Yes the KJV was flavored a little bit with the times they were in, which is why I go to the amplified 

1 Corinthians 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says. 35 If there is anything they want to learn [that is, if they have questions about anything being said or taught], they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to talk in church. (amp)

Which makes it more of a procedural issue, than a misogynistic issue...which makes sense as this whole chapter is about doing things decently in order (not speaking in tongues unless you also have the interpretation et al)  and he ends the chapter with

 40 But all things must be done appropriately and in an orderly manner. (amp)

What we cannot argue is that this was put in the Word as God's will. Otherwise the whole bible becomes suspect because we now live in a day and a culture that no longer accepts the "subordinance" of women in the marriage relationship and frankly is emasculating men. In all things one leads and one follows, and it supposed to be the man who leads, but society has set about to neuter men and the lines become fuzzy.  

Side note: It was a male run tobacco company who made women's cigarettes and told them you've come a long way baby. And many of those women have died from cancer.

It is interesting that it appears in the quoted reference that Paul is quoting the Law as his authority for teaching the silence of women in the church.  This is strange, because Paul's attitude to the Law, especially in Romans, contradicts the 1 Corinthians quote.  Because there was editing of the Greek manuscripts used by the Latin churches in the Second Century, it was quite probable that the reference to the Law was inserted to strengthen women's silence in churches and make it appear that Paul made the reference to the Law.  The M.A. thesis that I linked in the thread, shows all the redactions in the New Testament, even the changing of names from feminine to masculine, especially giving a male name to a female apostle.  These redactions were done to make it appear that it was God's will for women not to have any verbal ministry in the churches, and so the Western Latin church adopted the redacted Latin manuscripts, supported by Tertullian and those who came after him.

In my view, the translations that arise out of the Eastern Greek manuscripts would be more reliable, because those manuscripts would not have been edited and therefore would have been more true to the original authors.

This is a strong case to approach the Scriptures prayerfully, and be open to the Holy Spirit to give us a true exegesis, rather than just take versions like the KJV, which is based on the Latin manuscripts and therefore down on women ministry, literally without allowing the Holy Spirit to pick the meat from the bones.

It is interesting to me that those who are adamant that the KJV is the only "breathed on" version, are the ones who are the most opposed to woman ministry and very inflexible on other theological issues, and seem to be very quick on dictating "God's will in the Scriptures" to others.

[Paul James]

18 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

I have heard all the arguments and I simply cannot allow that God would let his word, through which he saved thousands be monkeyed with.  Yes it might have been only for that church, but God saw fit that we ALL saw it. The bible is the God inspired word of God and can only be interpreted by the bible.  You start bringing outside sources, authorities and theories of men, you dilute the pure word of God.

It says what it says and it is there for a reason. Yes I know it goes against all modern sensibilities...but the bible does that quite a bit. 

2nd Corinthians 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 

The reality is that the Greek manuscripts that formed the basis of the Latin Scriptures WERE tampered with and reworded in some places in order to match the Christian church with Roman social norms of the Second Century.  There were two reasons for this:  (1)  to make the Christian church more acceptable in Roman society; and (2) to counter Montanism, which was dominated by women prophets.  Tertullian was totally opposed to Montanism and so he was strict in his teaching that women should not be allowed to have a verbal role in Christian churches.  Therefore he represented the Latin Scriptures as the undisputed word of God and taught that it was God's will that women be silent in church.  but because the Latin Scriptures were altered by editors and commentators, then it can be argued that the doctrine was man's and not God's. 

There has to be a question arising when we read in 1 Corinthians 11 where Paul encouraged women to prophesy, and yet in 1 Corinthians 14 he says that women should be silent.   I can't imagine that the Holy Spirit should contradict Himself.  When we look more closely into the 1 Corinthians 14 reference we see that the Holy Spirit was dealing with a specific problem concerning order in the church, that married women should be silent for a particular reason to prevent the problem reoccurring, rather than a blanket ban on women prophesying and preaching in church.
 

[David1701]

10 minutes ago, Paul James said:

The reality is that the Greek manuscripts that formed the basis of the Latin Scriptures WERE tampered with and reworded in some places in order to match the Christian church with Roman social norms of the Second Century.  There were two reasons for this:  (1)  to make the Christian church more acceptable in Roman society; and (2) to counter Montanism, which was dominated by women prophets.  Tertullian was totally opposed to Montanism and so he was strict in his teaching that women should not be allowed to have a verbal role in Christian churches.  Therefore he represented the Latin Scriptures as the undisputed word of God and taught that it was God's will that women be silent in church.  but because the Latin Scriptures were altered by editors and commentators, then it can be argued that the doctrine was man's and not God's. 

There has to be a question arising when we read in 1 Corinthians 11 where Paul encouraged women to prophesy, and yet in 1 Corinthians 14 he says that women should be silent.   I can't imagine that the Holy Spirit should contradict Himself.  When we look more closely into the 1 Corinthians 14 reference we see that the Holy Spirit was dealing with a specific problem concerning order in the church, that married women should be silent for a particular reason to prevent the problem reoccurring, rather than a blanket ban on women prophesying and preaching in church.
 

Women not being permitted to speak in assemblies, refers to them speaking from themselves.  Prophecy is not from oneself, but from God.  The prohibition is from speaking (human to human), contrasted with prophecy (God to man) and prayer (man to God), which are explicitly permitted to women, in the assemblies.

Regarding the Eastern Greek manuscripts (i.e. the Byzantine text form), this forms the majority of extant Greek manuscripts; and it definitely includes that the law also says that women are to be in subjection.

1 Cor. 14:34,35 (English Majority Text Version)

34 Let your women be silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but to be in submission, just as the law also says.
35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for women to speak in church.

[Paul James]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yep. Mostly. 

Paul was writing to and about conditions specific to the Corinthian congregations but it is likely similar conditions existed in other Gentile cities, especially Ephesus where like Corinth huge temples of pagan Gods existed. These cities had female converts from female goddess religions. This mean women used to having power, position and influence were converts. many of these religions like the Aphrodite and Dionysian cults had temple prostitutes (both male and female) and therefore/thereby again women used to power, position, and influence. 

Try to get a woman of power, position, and influence to shut up . 

It can't be done in the flesh. 

Furthermore, all we need to understand the silence of all women at all times in congregational meetings is wrong is the letter to the Corinthians itself! In that very same letter Paul writes of the female prophetesses. If women are to be silent how then could there possibly be female prophets? 

Scripture is our friend .

Logic is also our friend . 

 

And you're right, Paul, there were two female apostles, Priscilla and Junias. Of the four times Priscilla is mentioned in the NT she is given preeminence over her husband three of those four mentions (in direct conflict with the common practice of that day). The first two witness of the resurrection were women ! Try telling Miriam or Deborah she can't speak in church . Make sure you're not standing near anyone when you do so because you don't want anyone to get hurt by collateral damage when God strikes you dead . 

And you're probably correct about this being an issue regarding married women. Look at the standards asserted by Paul when he wrote Timothy about leaders' requirements. All of the examples given are of married women; not a single unmarried woman in the bunch. Are we to believe single men could not serve as elders/overseers or deacons? That would prohibit Paul or Timothy from holding such positions . Conversely, in a culture where the eldest male was the head of the household and spoke representatively for all we can imagine all sorts of problems arising in the Church where there is no male or female in Christ if a husband and wife are both elders and have differing opinions. 

Especially if one of them was a former pagan priestess converted to Christ. 

 

The epistolary addresses very real, quite common conditions common to that era and place. It doesn't take a degree in rocket surgery to figure out this stuff but it does take a little bit of study. 

 

And gentlemen, I married an incredible woman and if you come to my house and my wife opens her mouth for your benefit then 1) you'd best listen because she is very wise, and 2) I've got her back. 

Very real, commonly occurring conditions ordinary to that time and culture.

When we look at church history and see the number of women who had very effective ministries, such as Maria Woodworth-Etter, who won thousands to Christ and had many verified miraculous healings; Aimee Semple MacPherson who had a very powerful gospel ministry;  Kathryn Khulman, whose ministry involved spontaneous healing of every disease and disability one can think of;  we have to ask how come God honoured those ministries, contradicting what seemed like Paul teaching that women should not have a verbal ministry in churches.   It seemed that every time a woman gets up and preaches, and people get saved and healed through her ministry, the Holy Spirit is going against Paul's instruction.

We know that the miracle working power of the Holy Spirit cannot be denied, so we have to ask questions about the validity of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.  Did Paul really give the instruction in the way it seemed, or was it either inserted by an misogynist editor, or was quoted out of context?   We are encouraged to question everything when something seems contradictory.   John says, "Don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine whether they are of God or not."   Paul teaches elsewhere, "Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good".

We know that in modern times, some editing in Bible translations have made it appear that Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, by the replacement of the word "virgin" with "young woman".  Then there are new versions of the Bible that depict God as a woman.  The New World version of the Bible has been edited to fit JW doctrine.

I wouldn't be surprised if a new Cessationist version of the Bible came out that made it appear in Scripture that the supernatural gifts were always meant to be limited to the Apostolic Age.   But all these editions would just be following the same attitude that the Second Century editors of manuscripts had that had them edit the wording of the New Testament to make it appear that it was totally man-dominated.

[Paul James]

2 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Women not being permitted to speak in assemblies, refers to them speaking from themselves.  Prophecy is not from oneself, but from God.  The prohibition is from speaking (human to human), contrasted with prophecy (God to man) and prayer (man to God), which are explicitly permitted to women, in the assemblies.

Regarding the Eastern Greek manuscripts (i.e. the Byzantine text form), this forms the majority of extant Greek manuscripts; and it definitely includes that the law also says that women are to be in subjection.

1 Cor. 14:34,35 (English Majority Text Version)

34 Let your women be silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but to be in submission, just as the law also says.
35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for women to speak in church.

Given Paul's attitude to the Law, it is highly improbable that he would say in Romans that we are not subject to the Mosaic Code, and then in 1 Corinthians 14 he saying that we should be subject to the Law in terms of women's involvement in the churches.

It is true that married women be in submission to their husbands, but there is no requirement for single women to be in submission to any man, except to the leaders of their church.  But submission never included being locked out of verbal ministry.   Paul in his instructions to Timothy says that women should not usurp authority of men in the church, but that does not prohibit a woman having verbal ministry under the leadership of the elders.   It is obvious that Priscilla would have been submissive to Aquila, but it is clear that she had a teaching ministry of her own in conjunction with her husband.  And Junia was acknowledged as an apostle by Paul, which is totally contradictory to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.  So we are led to see that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is not all that it appears to be and requires closer exegesis and study to find out if Paul actually wrote it, or, if he did, why and in what context did he write it.

 

[Arrabon]

If you study the history of the church for the last 2000 years, and also how the current bibles have come to be worded, you'll find a lot of meddling.

History  in many ways is our best teacher about the truth.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Arrabon

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Paul James said:

So, the teaching about women being silent in churches is a Roman Catholic doctrine resulting from the manuscripts being altered by Western Latin church commentators to make it appear that it was God's will for women not to share the preaching and prophesying ministry of the church.

Supposition. 

[grumix8]

women prophets have been chosen by G-d like Esther it is not G-d who opresses women but sin in the world and how it's use. Men use sin and destroy women but G-d is the father who protects he's daughters. Women have a huge role in the propechy.