Women forced to keep silence in Church

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Waggles said:

Points to which I wrote of in earlier posts.

I have a copy of Harper's Bible Dictionary 1952 (British Edition 1954) in which this modern scholarship attributes, for example, Genesis as being derived from Mesopotamian creation myths. Moses rewriting the Gilgamesh epic concerning the Flood and so on. 

This Bible dictionary is riddled throughout by unbelief and does not uphold the 66 Books of the Bible as inspired by God. 

Too much theology leads to unbelief and worldly wisdom. 

Acts 4:13  Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus.

I have a small paperback by some theologian named Unger from the Dallas Theological College who wrote that Pentecostal pastors who only had the Holy Spirit to ordain and teach them, could not possibly be true worthwhile pastors to lead the flock, as they did not have a theology degree from a reputable theological college. They were guilty of being unlearned.

Thank God that Smith Wigglesworth and John Lake did not have their Masters Degrees in Divinity or they would never have accomplished the great Pentecostal revivals of their times. 

Yes, Liberal theology is only good for burning.

[David1701]

On 2/4/2021 at 9:48 PM, anynmsfmly said:

Thank you. I do not want the stress and responsibility of speaking human to human. Only to God.

Everyone slips up sometimes; but, we are exhorted to speak as it were the very oracles of God; and, we are told that those who are habitually led by the Holy Spirit are the sons of God.

Edited February 5, 2021 by David1701

[Uber Genius]

1 hour ago, Arrabon said:

What an arrogant screen name!

It is a test, foisted on mockers, whom don't intuit the avatar!

ever hear of Wiley Coyote?

he calls himself "Super Genius!" 

Then, in every episode minds you, blows himself up or ends up falling off a cliff.

it is IRONY!

[Uber Genius]

1 hour ago, Arrabon said:

They are only unclear meanings and unclear contradictions to the unschooled and those that miss-understand Gods word as a complete thought, with unity and Harmony, with a complete purpose, who constantly re-asses the milk of the word and never get into the meat of God's word and get past the basics of Gods word as this is

So... was unclear about where you rest your argument, unclear meanings or unclear constradictions?

[David1701]

18 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

It is a test, foisted on mockers, whom don't intuit the avatar!

ever hear of Wiley Coyote?

he calls himself "Super Genius!" 

Then, in every episode minds you, blows himself up or ends up falling off a cliff.

it is IRONY!

Of course, someone could hide pride behind a mask of apparent self-deprecation.  It is not unheard of you know.

P.S. This is British indirectness and should not be taken to mean that I have any doubt.

Edited February 6, 2021 by David1701

[Uber Genius]

1 hour ago, Arrabon said:

You need to move on to a different topic, or find a different teacher for Christianity 101

Ad hominem.

This subject, like others in two thousand year-old theological debates are made up of premises based on texts that can be argued in context. If a sound argument is offered based on premises that are most likely true, then it has some wait Andy should be considered.

But you haven't given us any reason to doubt my premise that Paul's precope on women in Timothy is any more comprehensible than his argument for women being saved NOT BY GRACE, BUT BY CHILDBEARING!

So you dodged the premise altogether , made an ill-informed attack on me personally (demonstrating ignorance and arrogance ironically), and finished with yet another personal attack.

Intellectually and emotional immaturity are not qualities of disciples!

there are good arguments for women not being allowed to speak or lead in the church. I recommend that you focus on those and thus provide a way to move forward in your intellectual maturity!

[Arrabon]

 

20 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

So... was unclear about where you rest your argument, unclear meanings or unclear constradictions?

Uber

I think you need to consider how you came here and presented yourself.

This is a Christian site where we try to build each other up in the truth and help each other grow to our fullest potential in love and kindness for the kingdom of heaven.

You seem to have very little understanding of any of that in your opinions and beliefs.

Did you come here to learn, or show us how little you know, so we can lovingly help you to learn the truth??

 

In all of God's loving kindness

My name is Arrabon

[Arrabon]

35 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

Ad hominem.

This subject, like others in two thousand year-old theological debates are made up of premises based on texts that can be argued in context. If a sound argument is offered based on premises that are most likely true, then it has some wait Andy should be considered.

But you haven't given us any reason to doubt my premise that Paul's precope on women in Timothy is any more comprehensible than his argument for women being saved NOT BY GRACE, BUT BY CHILDBEARING!

So you dodged the premise altogether , made an ill-informed attack on me personally (demonstrating ignorance and arrogance ironically), and finished with yet another personal attack.

Intellectually and emotional immaturity are not qualities of disciples!

there are good arguments for women not being allowed to speak or lead in the church. I recommend that you focus on those and thus provide a way to move forward in your intellectual maturity!

At this point I don't think the topic is even important as far as your concerned.

I agree with @Josheb

31 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yeah, no, not so much. It is irony for Wiley. Cute. Clever juxtaposition, but only for a moment. Not so ironic as an avatar intended to test others.

I don't think you even understand the purpose of us being here.

You make the topic your focus when Love and respect is where we all begin, and speak kindly without a consideration for ego or arrogance or thinking we can tell people how they should really think.

Humility is the place we all had to start, and it could do you well too.

 

In loving joy and peace

Arrabon

Edited February 5, 2021 by Arrabon

[Waggles]

Good grief ... me thinks that the topic is lost. 

What was the OP again?

[Paul James]

3 hours ago, David1701 said:

I've already shown you that the Majority Text (i.e. the Byzantine, Eastern text form) has  1 Corinthians 14:34-35 just as it is in the Critical Text and the Received Text; in fact, the text used by the Eastern Orthodox (the Patriarchal Text) is extremely similar (although not identical) to the Received Texts used by the Geneva Bible, Authorised Version, NKJV, etc.

Here is the Eastern Orthodox New Testament, for the verses in question.

1 Cor. 14: 33b-35 (EONT)

As is done in all the Churches of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the Churches, for it has not been permitted for them to speak as they are to be under authority, as the law also says. 35 If they desire to learn about something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is not fitting that a woman should speak in the Church.

 

I know what "criticism" means, in "textual criticism".

Why did you not answer my question?  Here it is again, in case you feel able to answer it now.

Let me ask you something here, because I have a suspicion: do you believe that God has preserved his word; or, do you believe that, in textual criticism, the Bible should be treated like any secular book of antiquity?

Textual criticism should be applied to the Bible because of the different revisions through the centuries, some good, some not so good.   It is important that the most accurate text is determined, and textual criticism is used for that purpose.   I think it is more important that textual criticism is used for the Bible over and above other books of antiquity, because the original texts were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit.  But we don't have those originals any longer, and the earliest text dates back the 4th Century.

Also we have to consult the writing of the earliest church fathers, because there are quotations of Scripture that they used that can be compared with the manuscripts.  These early church fathers would have had access to earlier texts that are no longer available now.   If an early church father quotes a certain passage that is different from the 4th Century manuscript, we can assume that the early church father's quote may be the accurate one and that an editorial change has been made from the earlier text to the 4th Century one.

Also, we can make a pretty accurate assumption from the teaching of the early church fathers previous to Tertullian concerning women speaking and prophesying in church and if they accept that women do have a verbal role in the churches, then we can assume that there has been some subtle changes in the manuscript to make it appear that Tertullian's teaching is the accurate version.

So, to be able to use textual criticism in an expert manner, the scholar must be familiar with all the existing texts, early church history, and the written works of the early church fathers right back to the earliest.'

One further point:   I have never tried to memorise Scripture, but ever since April 1969, when the Holy Spirit revealed the reality of Jesus to me and brought me into close fellowship with Him, His guidance has been mainly through bringing Scriptures to mind.  Therefore I have the attitude that when the Holy Spirit quotes Scripture to my mind (from the KJV, by the way, because for the first 12 years of my Christian life that was the version I used), it has to be accurate.  Also, when studying a passage of Scripture, and the Holy Spirit gives me fresh insight into it, that has to be accurate as well.

it is interesting that in answer to my concerns about the female ministry in my Union church, the Holy Spirit led me to the M.A. thesis which gave me valuable insight into why 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is certainly not a blanket prohibition on female ministry in the churches.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Paul James