Rapture questions

[iamlamad]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:35 PM, WailingWall said:

I wanted to ask a few simple questions about the rapture theory. What ive found in scripture is no wheres near what i hear from the Rapturist. Ive found that when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we are not going to heaven but are going to the kingdom, the thousand year period of rest, right here on this earth. The changing {rapture} takes place on the Day of the Lord, after the tribulation period. Are there any scriptures that say we are going to heaven at the time of the changing?

Please explain where and how you "found" this  - that most of the church world would disagree with.

To answer your question, read John 14 the first few verses.

Edited February 14, 2021 by iamlamad

[missmuffet]

The rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ are two separate events:

The Rapture                                                      The Return

Christ comes in the air                                   Christ comes to earth

(1 Thess. 4:16-17)                                            ( Zech 14:4)

Christ comes for His saints                             Christ comes with His saints

(1 Thess. 4:16-17)                                            ( 1 Thess. 3:13; Jude 14)

Movement from the earth to heaven              Movement from Heaven to earth

No signs it is imminent                                   Portended by many signs                                   

Time of blessing and comfort                          (Matt. 24:4-29)

(1 Thess. 4:18)                                                   Time of destruction and judgment

Involves true believers only                             (2 Thess. 2:8-12) 

John 14:1-3; 1 Cor.15:55;                                    Involves Israel and Gentile nations

1 Thess. 4: 13-18)                                               ( Matt. 24-25)

Will occur in a blink of an eye,                         Will be visible to the entire world

to only Christ's own                                           ( Matt. 24:27; Rev. 1:7) 

( 1 Cor. 15: 51-52)

 

 

                           

Edited February 14, 2021 by missmuffet

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, WailingWall said:

The bible does not say what you said it says. It does not say THE great tribulation

Revelation 7:14 (KJV) 
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Theres no THE.  Makes a huge difference

Acts 14:21-22 (KJV) 
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 

 

This is not really true: in the Greek it is THE tribulation the great:  ek thV qliyewV thV megalhV 
For some unknown reason, few translators translate the "the." It is seen in interlinear texts. 

It IS "the great tribulation," but it is not the "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of. Here I think John is referring to the church age and included "the great" because it has been tribulation for 2000 years.

 

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Rev 7:9 speaks abt the great multitude which came out of the great tribulation, they wont hunger n thirst anymore in new bodies.

That is them. Maybe not good English, but that great crowd is the just raptured church. Many doubt this, but it is true.  What they came out of (one by one according to the Greek verb tense)  is the daily tribulations of the church age. Perhaps God called it mega because it has lasted 2000 years. This fits Paul's timing for the rapture perfectly: the church in heaven just before wrath.

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, WailingWall said:

The bible does not say what you said it says. It does not say THE great tribulation 

..... that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 

 

the abv verses u quoted did not say the great tribulation either which means The test of the wise virgins is now.

Edited February 14, 2021 by R. Hartono

[WailingWall]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:32 PM, R. Hartono said:

The rapture (1 Thes 4:16) of saints are seen in heaven as the Great Multitude of Revelation 7.........

Ok Hartono, you claim the Saints that were raptured are the great multitude found in Rev.7. 

REV.7 [1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the FOUR WINDS of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel....... [9] After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The prophecy of the 4 winds {Rev.7 v1}– A one time event.

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Zeke 37 is also talking about the prophecy of the 4 winds – The dead in Christ rise 1st {1Cor.15} {Zeke 37v12} This is the 1st resurrection – But look at Zeke 37{v 12} They are brought to Israel and not to heaven as the Rapturist claim –  
 

[WailingWall]

In case ya wanna know when the 4 winds will blow. Its not pre-trib!

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

The prophecy of the 4 winds – God gathers His elect {in the twinkling of an eye} and after the tribulation 
 

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, WailingWall said:

Ok Hartono, you claim the Saints that were raptured are the great multitude found in Rev.7. 

REV.7 [1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the FOUR WINDS of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel....... [9] After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The prophecy of the 4 winds {Rev.7 v1}– A one time event.

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Zeke 37 is also talking about the prophecy of the 4 winds – The dead in Christ rise 1st {1Cor.15} {Zeke 37v12} This is the 1st resurrection – But look at Zeke 37{v 12} They are brought to Israel and not to heaven as the Rapturist claim –  
 

I am going to explain this to you, an maybe you will get it or maybe not, but when there are supposed contradictions, one must not allow the contradictions to stand, EXAMPLE Daniel 7:11 says the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED and then he is cast into hell. Rev. 19:20 says the Beast is cast into hell alive, what gives? Both cant be true and God cant lie, so we have to THINK here. Daniel 7:11 is so matter of fact we must assume Gabriel did not lie to Daniel, so lets look closer at Rev. 19:20, can that be explained? Yes, the wicked will be judged  1000 years, after Jesus has ruled, the righteous are raised at the First resurrection, but the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are so evil, they will not be allowed to SLEEP/Rest in the grave for the 1000 year rule of Jesus, they will be taken ALIVE as in not allowed to ever rest in the grave, our souls never die, thus this solves the contradiction, they are indeed killed, all men must die once and be judged, that means ALL MEN, but these two are judged as soon as they are killed and never allowed to rest in the grave. That solves the contradiction.

Likewise, the reason you are confused on "THE GREAT TRIBULATION" in Rev. 7 is you are not THINKING it through brother. I will lay out all the options for you, then you can add up the numbers which are really just simple math.

Those seen in Rev. 7:1-8 are the Jews who are fleeing Judea, the 144,000 is just a Metaphor for ALL Israel who repent, the number 10 = completeness the number  12 = fulness. Thus 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completeness) x 10 x 10 is just God's saying this is ALL Israel who repent, and via Zechariah 13:8-9 w know how many Jews repent, it says that 1/3 repent ad call God God and He calls them his Children at that time, the 2/3 who do not repent will perish/die. The very next verse (LOL) is Zechariah 14:1-2 and it says Behold, the Day of the Lord cometh...........then we see Jerusalem is conquered (by the Anti-Christ).

So, how many Jews are in Israel? About 9 million, thus 1/3 is 3 million, so the 144,000 is a STAND IN for the 3 million Jewish people who repent, then flee Judea for the Petra/Bozrah area where God protects them for 1260 days. NOW...Reading the text here will tell us that is really what is going on. When the Angels is told to HOLD UP the four winds, tthat means an ACTION/Judgment by God, and we know this by what is said, HURT NOT, the Earth, Sea nor Trees until the 144,000( 3 Million or more Jews who repented) are Sealed (protected in the Petra/Bozrah area) in the head. Notice what HURTS the Earth, Sea and Trees (KEY) is the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments, the Fire (Trump #1) burns 1/3 of the trees, the Sea gets hit by the Mountain/space rock and the Earth is hurt by the same Trumpet Judgments, so what is really being said is, HOLD UP the Trumpet Judgments until the Children of Israel who repented and fled Judea, make it into their SAFE ZONE where God will protect them for 1260 days!!

Thus the above is about Israel, not the great multitude from all nations as seen in Rev. 7:9-16. So, who are those that came out of "GREAT TRIBULATION" or "THE GREAT TRIBULATION" ? It matters not if there is a THE or not tbh.

These above CAN NOT gave come out of the 70th week tribulation, AND that is provable, by me, via the scriptures. But, first let me explain who they are. Jesus in the Gospel of John told the Disciples/Church that we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION on this earth, the world hated him so it would also hate us. So, ALL TIME on earth is tribulation, thus we have a 2000 some odd year tribulation period known as the Church Age Period, we have a 70th week tribulation period where the first 3.5 years is a FAKE PEACE and we then have the Troubles of Jacob which last exactly 1260 days or 3.5 years. 

Which is GREATER  in length ? the 2000 some odd year period or the 7 year period? The 2000 year Church Age Period is of course greater in length, the 70th week period is GREATER in intensity against Israel, so if John is describing the Church Age Saints and says they came out of the 2000 year Church Age, isn't he correct in calling it the Great as in 2000 is GREATER than 7? 2000>7.

We just DEMANDED God not use the word GREAT to describe anything but what we say it should describe, and that is why so many people do not understand what John is describing in this situation. The GREAT Church Age Tribulation period where millions of Christians died fir their faith. They are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7-9-16 because we have been Raptured to Heaven to be with Jesus in order to marry the Lamb, ten we return with the Lamb on White Horses in Rev. 19.

NOW........As per proof as to why those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 CAN NOT be the Saints Martyred during the 70th week.

1.) In the 5th Seal Jesus tells those Martyrs under the Altar they MUST WAIT until all their brothers have been killed in like manner as they were before they can get their vengeance on those people n earth who killed them. So those seem can not be them.

2.) Those judged in Rev. 20:4 are judged AFTER Jesus' Second Coming, so how are they seen in Rev. 7:9-16? They are of course NOT SEEN THERE, you are conflating the 70th week tribulation Saints with the Church Age Tribulation Saints, ALL are Tribulation Saints because ALL TIME on this earth = Tribulation, according to Jesus' own words, thus MANKIND has taken the Tribulation and DEMANDED it be the final 7 years, but it is just not a fact brother. 

God Bless

[WailingWall]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I am going to explain this to you, an maybe you will get it or maybe not, but when there are supposed contradictions, one must not allow the contradictions to stand.......

Your losin me already Rev.man. There have been no contridictions in what i wrote.

[Revelation Man]

38 minutes ago, WailingWall said:

Your losin me already Rev.man. There have been no contridictions in what i wrote.

You lose what the bible actually says by not understanding the seeming CONTRADICTIONS in the bible. I really believe way too many people refuse to read or study. If you read my post you would have understood what I stated. But you chose to give an excuse why you didn't read it, so I will not try again.

No one stated you CONTRADICTED ANYTHING. I stated the reason being are DECIEVED is they see bible contradictions and do nit understand them. You don't understand the GREAT TRIBULATION is the 2000 year Church Age. That's on you.