Rapture questions

[WailingWall]

I wanted to ask a few simple questions about the rapture theory. What ive found in scripture is no wheres near what i hear from the Rapturist. Ive found that when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we are not going to heaven but are going to the kingdom, the thousand year period of rest, right here on this earth. The changing {rapture} takes place on the Day of the Lord, after the tribulation period. Are there any scriptures that say we are going to heaven at the time of the changing?

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 2/11/2021 at 1:35 PM, WailingWall said:

Are there any scriptures that say we are going to heaven at the time of the changing?

Hi WailingWall,

I think you can get a pretty decent idea of a sequence of events in 1 Thess 4:13-18:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,^d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

I have the text above so that you may look at it as it is, and determine for yourself, what it does say, and what it does not say.

My opinion, my commentary, is that the apostle is telling the Thessalonians that they do not need to grieve as others who have died, Christians have a hope, that others do not. He points out that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep (died), presumably at His second coming. 

Then comes the part were we can make some deductions about the sequence of events to take place. Paul tells the Thessalonians by the word of the Lord Himself, that we who are alive at Jesus coming, will not precede there brethren who have died, but that the dead in Christ will rise first.

In verse 18 he describes how it will happen:

• The Lord Himself will descend from heaven
• with a cry of command
• the voice of an archangel
• sound of the trumpet of God
• And the dead in Christ will rise

Now Paul said his information was by the Lord's own word. What does that mean, I do not know, but at the least it means that this authority is from the Lord Himself. One possibility, is that Paul know from the apostles, what Jesus told them about His coming, as in Matt 24:

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice some similarities?

• The Lord descends
• angels
• trumpet
• gathering

The passage in Mark 13 is similar:

24“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

 Regardless of Paul's source, what he clearly says is that the dead in Christ rise first . . .

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Now, your question as about going to heaven at the time of changing. Depends one what you mean by heaven, We will meet the Lord in the air. If heaven is the air, then yes. However, by the Lords own word, He is returning and bringing with Him the formerly dead Christians and the living Christians will be caught up with them (with the Lord and the resurrected believers) and be with them forever. As verse 18 points out, these are encouraging words, never to be separated from Jesus again.

Now, you referred to the changing and the rapture. The rapture is the catching up to be with the Lord, certainly that much we established. Is that the same as the changing?

From 1 Cor 15:

 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 

Again it is pointed out, that we will not all sleep (die) but we will all be changed (the dead and the living). Again, we have a trumpet mentioned, the dead will be raised, never to die again, and the living and the dead will be changed.

You may decide for yourself, if this changing occurs at the time of Jesus return when the dead and the living in Christ, go up to be with Him forever.

We already saw twice, that this second coming is after what Jesus referred to as the great tribulation. I mention this because part of your questions had to do rapture timing or sequence, and if at that time, we go to heaven.

I am with you in that I never see it said in the Bible, that we are going to heaven at the rapture, in face, we are going to be with Jesus, but where will He be?

Then language of the text we looked at, refers to the Lord bringing with him His elect, not taking them away. It suggests that His direction is earthward, not heavenward. In fact, in the Matt 24 passages we looked at, his coming is the Greek word parousia.

( παρουσία ) is a word translated in our English Bibles to the words coming, arrival, or presence. The word is common in eschatological contexts, and occurs 24 times. Below you can see how and where the word is used. It derives from para (alongside) and eimi (I am), thus it is a coming to be alongside. It is notable, that this is a noun,

3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present or to arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially arrival by an owner, who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS).  3952 (parousia) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit'" (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousia) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor.  The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence'" (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

So apparently Jesus is coming to be alongside us, coming here after our gathering. I am not trying to make a strong case about that (though it can be made, it is just beyond the scope of this reply) as your question is not about a detailed exegesis. Knowing that many people will eventually read this, just giving them some basic information to follow up with.

To the sequence question though I would point out a bit more that related to what Paul said about the dead in Christ rising first, then the living.

Revelation 20 is quite interesting in this regard:

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

There we see people who were martyred - beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, that makes them Christian, part of the dead in Christ that Paul referred to. Also note that what happens to them is that they are resurrected. What did we see earlier? Those who are alive in Christ do not go to meet the Lord in the air, until after the dead in Christ are raised.

Here also we see again, that these particular dead in Christ were in the Great Tribulation, as indicated by their not taking the mark of the beast, and their refusal to worship the beast.

From that is seems to me that since we have seen that Jesus returns after the tribulation, and that the dead are raise at His coming, and that the rapture of the living is after that, that the Bible has indicated a sequence of great tribulation, Jesus returning, resurecting ot the dead in Christ, their rapturs,followed by the rapture of the living Christians.

I did not establish what is next (though the thousand year is after that), but yes you are correct, there is no mention of going to heaven in these passages at that time.

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, WailingWall said:

I wanted to ask a few simple questions about the rapture theory. What ive found in scripture is no wheres near what i hear from the Rapturist. Ive found that when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we are not going to heaven but are going to the kingdom, the thousand year period of rest, right here on this earth. The changing {rapture} takes place on the Day of the Lord, after the tribulation period. Are there any scriptures that say we are going to heaven at the time of the changing?

The rapture (1 Thes 4:16) of saints are seen in heaven as the Great Multitude of Revelation 7, who came out of the great tribulation, while the whole world is destroyed n unGodly people perish before the Millennium of Jesus Christ begins.

The same with the days of Noah where God punished unGodly people with flood.

[WailingWall]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:10 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

I did not establish what is next (though the thousand year is after that), but yes you are correct, there is no mention of going to heaven in these passages at that time.

Thanks. Nicely detailed

[WailingWall]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:32 PM, R. Hartono said:

The rapture (1 Thes 4:16) of saints are seen in heaven as the Great Multitude of Revelation 7, who came out of the great tribulation....

Read Rev.7 again and again. Where in Rev.7 can i find this? Where does it say the raptured saints are seen in heaven?

 

[R. Hartono]

39 minutes ago, WailingWall said:

Read Rev.7 again and again. Where in Rev.7 can i find this? Where does it say the raptured saints are seen in heaven?

 

Rev 7:9 speaks abt the great multitude which came out of the great tribulation, they wont hunger n thirst anymore in new bodies.

[Omegaman 3.0]

9 hours ago, WailingWall said:

Thanks. Nicely detailed

You are welcome!

[R. Hartono]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:10 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Revelation 20 is quite interesting in this regard:

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

Those are souls of martyrs who specifically died in the great tribulation after the rapture because they did not worship the beast and didnt rcv its mark, they need to wait until the GT is over to be resurrected and join the Millennium of Christ.

^{Rev 6:9} When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. ¹⁰ They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” ¹¹ Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,^[e] were killed just as they had been.

They are not part of the great multitutde in front of the Throne in Rev 7:9.

Edited February 14, 2021 by R. Hartono

[WailingWall]

14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Rev 7:9 speaks abt the great multitude which came out of the great tribulation, they wont hunger n thirst anymore in new bodies.

The bible does not say what you said it says. It does not say THE great tribulation

Revelation 7:14 (KJV) 
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Theres no THE.  Makes a huge difference

Acts 14:21-22 (KJV) 
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. 

 

[missmuffet]

Question: "What is the rapture of the church?"

Answer: The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.
The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. “We know that when he [Christ] appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).

The rapture of the church is a glorious event we should all be longing for. We will finally be free from sin. We will be in God’s presence forever. There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage each other with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).

https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by missmuffet