The saints (wise virgins) shall be snatched to the cloud means Jesus has not returned yet.

[R. Hartono]

11 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

There is nothing in the parable that indicates the virgins have been raptured for only a door separates the wise from the foolish.  The foolish were just on the wrong side.

 

Only a door ? Then people can try to open it with a screwdriver n enter the Feast of the Lamb.

The harvest shall be taken and then the chaff shall be burnt in the field (the world) : Matt 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

May Jesus bless you.

Edited March 26, 2021 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

11 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

They did not come out before the great tribulation.  These came out of the great tribulation.  I believe that these are martyrs.

John saw two groups of people in heaven, the great multitude of Rev 7:9 as the raptured church and the souls under the Altar who are the martyrs in the great tribulation.

Rev 6:9 ⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

[seeking the lost]

4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

John saw two groups of people in heaven, the great multitude of Rev 7:9 as the raptured church and the souls under the Altar who are the martyrs in the great tribulation.

Rev 6:9 ⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 

4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

John saw two groups of people in heaven, the great multitude of Rev 7:9 as the raptured church and the souls under the Altar who are the martyrs in the great tribulation.

Rev 6:9 ⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

There is nothing in the text to indicate that the people that he saw were raptured.  The resurrection that proceeds the rapture is at the end of the thousand years.  Thus the impossibility that these are raptured.

[seeking the lost]

13 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 

Only a door ? Then people can try to open it with a screwdriver n enter the Feast of the Lamb.

The harvest shall be taken and then the chaff shall be burnt in the field (the world) : Matt 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

May Jesus bless you.

Yes only a door.  They are knocking and crying for the door to be opened to let them in but it is too late.

There is a difference between the tares and the chaff.  The tare are fake wheat these are gathered out first and burned.  This leaves the wheat behind.  When the wheat is gathered then the chaff is separated by winnowing.

[R. Hartono]

10 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

 

There is a difference between the tares and the chaff.  The tare are fake wheat these are gathered out first and burned.  This leaves the wheat behind.  When the wheat is gathered then the chaff is separated by winnowing.

In Agriculture practice around the world the wheat is taken first then the chaff is burnt in the field otherwise they will destroy both.

[seeking the lost]

14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

In Agriculture practice around the world the wheat is taken first then the chaff is burnt in the field otherwise they will destroy both.

 

14 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

In Agriculture practice around the world the wheat is taken first then the chaff is burnt in the field otherwise they will destroy both.

That may be true but read the scripture and go by that.  Matthew 13:
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.  

Notice that the tares are taken out first and burned.  Remember that tares and chaff are not the same thing.

[R. Hartono]

16 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Notice that the tares are taken out first and burned.  Remember that tares and chaff are not the same thing.

Wise virgins are the wheat taken first but the foolish are the chaff left behind.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by R. Hartono

[seeking the lost]

On 3/27/2021 at 7:12 PM, R. Hartono said:

Wise virgins are the wheat taken first but the foolish are the chaff left behind.

 

 

That may fit your theology but that is not what Jesus said.  The final authority is the scripture.  Matthew 13:
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Notice verse 30.  The tares are gathered out first then the wheat is gathered.

[Marathoner]

On 3/16/2021 at 9:45 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Oh, no. He DID "sleep!" It wasn't He who tore the veil from the top to the bottom! It was His FATHER who tore it! The resurrections of the multiple saints and the graves were opened at His death, but the graves weren't emptied until AFTER His Resurrection!

Matthew 27:45-54 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!" 

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a sponge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him."

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost (yielded up His last breath). 51 And, behold, THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS RENT IN TWAIN (RIPPED IN TWO) FROM THE TOP TO THE BOTTOM; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God!"

Here's verses 51 through 53 in Greek (transliterated):

51 Kai idou to katapetasma tou naou eschisthee ap' anoothen heoos katoo eis duo, kai hee gee eseisthee, kai hai petrai eschistheesan,
52 kai ta mneemeia aneoochtheesan kai polla soomata toon kekoimeemenoon hagioo eegertheesan:
53 kai exelthontes ek toon mneemeioon meta teen egersin autou eiseelthon eis teen hagian polin kai enefanistheesan pollois.

51 Kai = 51 And/Also
idou = look!
to = the
katapetasma = veil
tou = of-the
naou = Temple
eschisthee = was-ripped-in-half
ap' (apo) = away-from
anoothen = top
heoos = to
katoo = bottom
eis = into
duo, = two,
kai = and/also
hee = the
gee = earth/ground/land
eseisthee, = did-quake/was-shaken,
kai = and/also
hai = the
petrai = rocks
eschistheesan, = were-split-in-half
52 kai = 52 and/also
ta = the
mneemeia = tombs/memorials
aneoochtheesan = were-opened
kai = and
polla = many
soomata = bodies
toon = of-the
kekoimeemenoon = sleepers
hagioo = holy/sanctified
eegertheesan: = were-awakened:
53 kai = 53 and/also
exelthontes = having-gone-forth
ek = out
toon = of-the
mneemeioon = tombs/memorials
meta = after
teen = the
egersin = awakening
autou = of-Him
eiseelthon = they-entered
eis = into
teen = the
hagian = holy/sanctified
polin = city
kai = and/also
enefanistheesan = appeared(-in-person)/were-revealed
pollois. = to-many.

No, Yeshua` was WAKENED AFTER the three days and three nights.

When you said, " He descended and was preaching," that's a FABRICATION! The Scriptures do NOT teach that! (More on that later, if you want.)

"Being under the Law" is attempting to keep the Law on one's own, being BURDENED by the 613 commandments in one's feeble attempts to please God in one's own power.

"Being under Grace" is coming to God for HIS acceptance through the Sacrifice of His Son, Yeshua` the Messiah of God. With the Sacrifice covering the sins of an individual, God is free to JUSTIFY that individual, DECLARING that individual "RIGHTEOUS."

In death, a person is remembered by God for how that person acquired his or her acceptance by God.

Anyone who attempted to do it on his or her own will find that he or she failed miserably. His or her resurrection will be as one who is unjust at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Anyone who asked God for His help and received His grace, the Sacrifice applied to his or her life, and was declared by God to be righteous in the Messiah, will find that he or she is accepted in the Beloved, and God will resurrect him or her when He sends His Messiah Yeshua` back to be King on His behalf. He or she will be resurrected to NEW LIFE, and will live eternally in God's favor.

First, the Messiah Yeshua` did NOT "defeat death on the cross" for all. While it was the death knell of Death, Death's final defeat is still in the future. It should be obvious to all that death is still a part of our existence! HOWEVER, for the person in the Messiah, we have the PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE after the FINAL DEFEAT of DEATH just before the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium. Thus, the death of one of His saints is merely seen as a "nap."

Philippians 3:7-21 (KJV)

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect (complete): but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect (mature), be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven (the skies); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change (transform) our vile body (the body of our humiliation), that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

Yes, there WAS an offer of the King Yeshua`, God's Anointed (Messiah) to be King, and the Kingdom that would come from His Kingship, and like you say, it was rejected at that time. HOWEVER, that rejection was within the foreknowledge of God as the MEANS by which our Sacrifice would be offered to make it possible for God to DECLARE us "righteous" through the death of His Son as our "sin."

AND, when God says the time is right, that offer of the King and His Kingdom will be presented again, and this time, He and it will be accepted gladly by the children of Yhudah of Judah, the Jews! 

John 4:22 (KJV)

22 Ye (Samaritans) worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: FOR SALVATION (DELIVERANCE; RESCUE) IS OF THE JEWS.

 

For now, when one dies in the Messiah, one sleeps in the Messiah ... TO BE AWAKENED by God's Power! That's what "quickened by the Spirit" means! It means "to be brought back to life by the Spirit of God!"

Regarding 1 Peter 3:19-4:6, this is an obscure passage that some have interpreted to mean that Yeshua` went into the heart of the earth, where they assume Hades to be, and preach to those who are there, but there's another interpretation:

1 Peter 3:19-22; 4:1-6 (KJV)

 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save (deliver; rescue) us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revelings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

JUST WHOM did Yeshua`s death raise to life? Who came out of those tombs? I submit that THESE are the ones to whom Yeshua` "heralded the good news!" The word for "prison" is fulakee:

5438 fulakee (foo-lak-ay'). From fulassoo; a guarding or (concretely, guard), the act, the person; figuratively, the place, the condition, or (specially), the time (as a division of day or night), literally or figuratively
-- cage, hold, (im-)prison(-ment), ward, watch.

They were raised to life when Yeshua` died, but they didn't come out of their tombs until the Messiah was raised to life! There was a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE in the graveyard that morning before the women arrived!

You're assuming God is bringing them FROM HEAVEN with the Messiah; however, God is really bringing them FROM THEIR GRAVES to join the Messiah IN THE SKIES and THEN travel "with the Messiah."

There's that "waffling," again. READ FOR UNDERSTANDING, not to put your twist into what you have read!

The Greek words for "though he were dead" in 11:25 is "kan apothanee," which means "and-if he-should-die." The Greek word of "yet shall he live" is "zeesetai," which means "he-will-live." So, Yeshua` said, "And if he should die, he will live."

But, Yeshua`s point to Martha was to make her understand that "resurrection" is found IN THE MESSIAH YESHUA`, when He's there to make it happen!

Here's the Greek of 11:26: 

26 Kai pas ho zoon kai pisteuoon eis eme ou mee apothanee eis ton aioona: pisteueis touto?

26 And all the living-ones and believing-ones into me not (positively) not (negatively) he-should-die into the age: do-you-believe this?

You seem to be vacillating between calling it "sleep" and calling it "death." Each of us is a SINGLE body at a time, and yes, at the end of our decaying process, we die. And, since we have the promise of resurrection and the anticipation of that resurrection, we, like our Master, call it "sleep"; for the one who is in the Messiah, that's likened to "sleep" because it's NOT A PERMANENT CONDITION! And, in the Resurrection, we shall be "awakened out of sleep!" It is then, as being awakened, that "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (the living) shall be changed!" (1 Corinthians 15:52)

See and understand this:

Right now, we experience two different processes throughout our being: The first process is growth; that is, the cells in our body are constantly dividing and growing, replacing cells that have been damaged or have gone missing.

The second process is decay; that is, the cells in our body are wearing out and are either being replaced, or become missing, if they are irreplaceable.

Cells make up tissues, tissues make up organs, organs make up systems, and systems keep the body going. Small amounts of cell damage may be replaceable at the cellular level, such as a cut or a scratch. Deeper cell damage may call for scar tissue to replace the cells that were once there. Too much tissue damage, such as the loss of cartilage between bones, can lead to complications, like arthritis. If the tissues that make up the organs, such as the thyroid, are damaged, the organ may not work anymore. Some organs are more essential than others: One can survive without a working thyroid or a working bile duct or even a kidney, but one cannot survive without a working liver or heart! Without a heart, the circulatory system is in severe trouble! And, without a working circulatory system, the body will die, succumbing to the process of decay, which has, by that point, outnumbered and overtook the process of growth.

BUT, in the Resurrection, we will have the process of growth without the process of decay! Furthermore, we will get most of our life process directly from the light of God! I believe that when John said,

John 1:1-14 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was THE WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 IN HIM (THE WORD) WAS LIFE; and THE LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN. 5 And THE LIGHT shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of THE LIGHT, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of THAT LIGHT.

9 That was THE TRUE LIGHT, which LIGHTETH every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his GLORY  the GLORY as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 

... he meant this LITERALLY!

No, that's an error in interpretation. READ ON!

Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV)

1 If ye then be risen with Christ (through the Messiah), seek those things which are above, where Christ (the Messiah) sitteth on the right [hand] of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For YE ARE DEAD, and your life is hid with Christ (is hidden with the Messiah) in God. 4 WHEN CHRIST (THE MESSIAH), who is our life, SHALL APPEAR, THEN shall ye also appear with him in glory (brightness).

Sorry, but you're not right about this. The body that was planted was indeed the seed, but it was the seed COAT that died, not the germ of the seed! The germ of the seed grows into the "body that shall be!" Genetically, they are the SAME BODY! You don't think Paul knew that in an agricultural society?! All they would have to do is take a sharp knife and cut the seed in half to find the tiny, green (or yellow), plant inside, ready to grow into the adult version of the plant!

And, nope. There's no "separation of soul and spirit" in the conversation on the bodies ... or "separation of soul and body," either!

Paul is simply saying that the two bodies, although the same genetic structure, shall be VASTLY different in body TYPE when the plant emerges from the ground! THERE SHALL BE A CHANGE! THAT'S to what Paul was alluding!

No, that's just crazy talk. You're alluding back to Colossians 2:12 and foreshadows your reference to Romans 6:3-13. Let's HOPE "Our flesh bodies ARE" NOT "BURIED while we are still walking around in them!" How crazy is that?!

No, we were "buried WITH CHRIST!" That is, "IN BAPTISM!" IT'S A PICTURE! A SYMBOL! NOT LITERALLY! IT'S THE HOPE, the CONFIDENCE, that we have to be resurrected JUST AS THE MESSIAH was resurrected!

Now, when you are referencing 1 Corinthians 15:39-42, Paul was NOT saying that we would be like the heavenly bodies of the sun, moon, and stars any more than we would be like beasts, fishes, or birds! He was simply making the statement that there are two different kinds of GLORY, one of HEAT ("having a radiant glow") and one of LIGHT (LITERALLY radiant)! So, he may have been saying (and I believe that he was saying) that we will literally glow in the resurrection.

Hmmph! I don't "WANT to add a 'sleep/death' pause in the middle," there just IS ONE! GET OVER IT! DEATH STILL HAPPENS, whether you want to accept it or not! You don't have a "spiritual body" that goes to "Heaven"; you will just have to WAIT IN SLEEP until the Messiah Yeshua` returns, BECAUSE "this life is in His Son," and HE'S NOT BACK, YET!

No, the "wicked one" is NOT "death"; it's the devil, haSatan! Yeshua` told us that in His parable of the wheat and the tares (look-alike weeds):

Matthew 13:38-39 (KJV)

38 "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

And, regarding John's first letter, HE ALREADY SAID,

1 John 3:1-3 (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called "the sons of God": therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we "the sons of God," and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath THIS HOPE (Greek: elpida = "expectation of what is sure [certain]") in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Sorry, but again, you'll JUST HAVE TO WAIT (IN SLEEP) for "WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR!"

Well done and I enjoyed reading through. You touched upon something critically important and this is in harmony with the apostle Paul's words; when this body of corruption perishes and returns to the dust, we sleep. "We," meaning those whose lives are hidden in the Son of God. 

Of course, seeing as how we ARE this body we struggle to see past our nose of flesh at times and so we might cry out, "But how can this be? The Lord said we will never taste death!" But that's just it... we won't and never will. Faith, a gift of God, assures us of the hope of our salvation in Jesus Christ: He promised to raise us up on the last day. 

Time affects those who toil in this world which is subject to the passage of time. We're ever so aware of it but I'm assured that, to those who sleep, the passage of time is meaningless. We sample this pertinent reality whenever we sleep on this earth.

"I slept for 13 hours? Really? Oy!"

This is why I set multiple alarms to ensure that I wake up when desired. I'm not at all aware of the passage of time while I'm asleep... seven to ten alarms, spaced 10 minutes apart, help to ensure that I eventually get up. "Oh... looks I canceled six of them. Glad I set more!" 

There won't be any lollygagging when the Lord comes. To those who fell asleep, it will only seem to have been the blink of an eye.  

 

[iamlamad]

On 3/29/2021 at 9:48 AM, seeking the lost said:

That may fit your theology but that is not what Jesus said.  The final authority is the scripture.  Matthew 13:
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Notice verse 30.  The tares are gathered out first then the wheat is gathered.

Perhaps the 6th trumpet is the parable of the tares happening. The 6th trumpet will happen over 3.5 years from the end of the week when the wheat is gathered.

Edited April 1, 2021 by iamlamad