Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

Matt 25 vividly describes individuals receiving the result of the GWT judgment, "when the Son of Man comes". They are either sent into, "everlasting punishment" or, "life eternal" (Dan. 12:2, John 5:29). They are standing before the "throne" as also seen in Rev. 20 which cites their works/books being reviewed.

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

If you're talking about this very account of the sheep and goats judgment, then you've misread the account. Yeshua` will judge THROUGHOUT His Kingdom time, and His Kingdom is yet to be upon this earth! God's own prophecies DEMAND it! He doesn't owe it to the children of Israel, and He doesn't change the rules to make Himself look good! He will perform His own prophecies TO THE TEE because He is TRUE and FAITHFUL! His Kingdom SHALL be upon this earth!

Guys, you've GOT TO UNDERSTAND that the job of a king, particularly an Israeli king, is to be the SUPREME COURT JUDGE!!! There are no better examples than David and Shlomoh ("Solomon")! King David always ran things past YHWH God for direction in his answers. King Shlomoh asked for the wisdom to lead God's people and judge them rightly. His judgments were legendary! Lesser judgments can be decided by lower courts, but sometimes things must be escalated to the King!

One of the biggest errors that pretribulational rapturists make is to say that the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place in Heaven during the 7 years before the Second Coming. NOTHING could be farther from the truth! The Judgment Seat of the Messiah (since "Messiah" is what "Christ" means) will occur THROUGHOUT HIS KINGDOM TIME RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH where His Kingdom will be! It will occur not only during the Millennium, but it will occur THROUGHOUT ETERNITY!

For Gavri'eel told Miryam:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Furthermore, we are told that we shall reign with the Messiah in both the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) and in the eternal state of the New Earth and Sky (Revelation 22:3-5).

Now, I know this isn't taught very much, but what would we be doing in "Heaven" during the 7 years? It's not the "Judgment Seat of Christ," and it's not the "marriage of the Lamb," which takes place AFTER the Messiah is once again seated as King in Jerusalem! What would we be doing there? Hiding?!

God doesn't remove us FROM the trials; He sees us THROUGH the trials! In fact, He goes WITH US through the trials! No matter how much of God's Wrath is poured out on this earth, we would be safest WITH HIM WHEREVER WE ARE!

[Uriah]

43 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

If you're talking about this very account of the sheep and goats judgment, then you've misread the account.

I don't think so, bro. You have avoided the fact that this judgment is specifically consummated by the act of people entering the joy of their Lord and the others are to depart into everlasting fire! 

Matt 13:40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The sheep and goat passage is a DIRECT fulfillment of this!

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

I don't think so, bro. You have avoided the fact that this judgment is specifically consummated by the act of people entering the joy of their Lord and the others are to depart into everlasting fire! 

Shalom, Uriah.

Sorry, brother, but you're not reading it correctly. Let's look at it again!

Kata Maththaion 25:31-34 (Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894)

31 "Ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐν τῇ δόξῃ αὐτοῦ, καὶ πάντες οἱ ἅγιοι ἄγγελοι μετ’ αὐτοῦ, τότε καθίσει ἐπὶ θρόνου δόξης αὐτοῦ, 32 καὶ συναχθήσεται ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, καὶ ἀφοριεῖ αὐτοὺς ἀπ’ ἀλλήλων, ὥσπερ ὁ ποιμὴν ἀφορίζει τὰ πρόβατα ἀπὸ τῶν ἐρίφων· 33 καὶ στήσει τὰ μὲν πρόβατα ἐκ δεξιῶν αὐτοῦ, τὰ δὲ ἐρίφια ἐξ εὐωνύμων.

34 "τότε ἐρεῖ ὁ βασιλεὺς τοῖς ἐκ δεξιῶν αὐτοῦ,

"'Δεῦτε, οἱ εὐλογημένοι τοῦ πατρός μου, κληρονομήσατε τὴν ἡτοιμασμένην ὑμῖν βασιλείαν ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.'"

Transliterated this becomes, ...

31 "Hotan de elthee ho huios tou anthroopou en tee doxee autou, kai pantes hoi hagioi aggeloi met' autou, tote kathisei epi thronou doxees autou, 32 kai sunachtheesetai hemprosthen autou panta ta ethnee, kai aforiei autous ap' alleeloon, hoosper ho poimeen aforizei ta probata apo toon erifoon: 33 kai steesei ta men probata ek dexioon autou, ta de erifia ex euoonumoon.

34 "tote erei ho basileus tois ek dexioon autou,

"'Deute, hoi eulogeemenoi tou patros mou, kleeronomeesate teen heetoimasmeneen humin basileian apo katabolees kosmou.'"

Translated word-for-word, this becomes, ...

31 "When but comes the son of-the man in the glory/brightness of-him, and all the holy/awesome messengers with him, then he-shall-sit upon a-throne of-brightness of-him, 32 and shall-be-gathered in-front of-him all the nations, and he-shall-separate them away-from one-another, like the shepherd separates the sheep away-from the goats: 33 and he-shall-set the indeed sheep out-from [the]-right-side of-him the but goats out-from [the]-left-side.

34 "then will-say the king to-those out-from [the]-right-side of-him,

"'Come, those being-blessed by-the Father of-me, inherit the having-been-prepared for-you kingdom away-from [the]-foundation of-[the]-world.'"

Down in verse 41, He said,

41 "τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων,

"'Πορεύεσθε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ, οἱ κατηραμένοι, εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον, τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ.'"

Transliterated, this is ...

41 "tote erei kai tois ex euoonumoon,

"'Poreuesthe ap' emou, hoi kateeramenoi, eis to pur to aioonion, to heetoimasmenon too diaboloo kai tois aggelois autou.'"

And, translated, this becomes ...

41 "then he-will-say also to-those away-from [the]-left-side,

"'Depart away-from me, those being-cursed, into the fire the age-long, the-[one] having-been-prepared for-the devil and the messengers of-him.'"

Then, finally, at the end of this account, we read:

46 "καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον· οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον."

Transliterated, this is ...

46 "kai apeleusontai houtoi eis kolasin aioonion: hoi de dikaioi eis zooeen aioonion."

Translated word-for-word, this is ...

46 "and will-go-away these-ones into punishment age-long: the but righteous into life age-long."

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Matt 13:40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The sheep and goat passage is a DIRECT fulfillment of this!

Thank you for bringing this verse up! Let's look at it more closely, too!

First, He gave the parable to the listeners, not all of whom understood what was being said.

Matthew 13:24-30 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

Then, later, He explained this parable to His disciples in the house:

Matthew 13:36-43 (KJV)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 
38 The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels. 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

First, He identifies seven elements of the parable:

the sower of the good seed = the Son of man
the field = the world (kosmos)
the good seed = the children of the kingdom
the tares = the children of the wicked one
the enemy that sowed tares = the devil
the harvest = the end of the world (age)
the reapers = the angels

So, we can take the original parable and substitute these elements into the parable:

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed the children of the kingdom in his world (kosmos): 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed the children of the wicked one among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also. 27 So the servants of the Son of man came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow the children of the kingdom in thy world (kosmos)? from whence then hath it the children of the wicked one?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'The devil hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather the children of the wicked one up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the world (age): and in the time of the end of the world (age) I will say to the angels, "Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."'"

Then, He explained on:

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them (THROW THEM) into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

HEAR and UNDERSTAND THIS! First, this is a parable about the KINGDOM, not this present time.

Second, there is a difference noted between the Kingdom of the Son of man and the Kingdom of their Father, God the Father!

To show the difference a little more clearly, look at 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he (the Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (the Christ) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he (the Christ) must reign, till he (God the Father) hath put all enemies under his (the Christ's) feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he (God the Father) hath put all things under his (the Christ's) feet.

(But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest [obvious] that he [God the Father] is excepted, which did put all things under him [the Christ].)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Christ, the Son), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

First, note that there are THREE resurrections (numbered 0 through 2) that are put in their own order, not two: that of the Messiah ALONE (His is the "zeroeth" Resurrection), that of those who belong to the Messiah at the Messiah's Second Coming (the First General Resurrection), and that of those at the end, when the Messiah has put down all rule and all authority and power, when He has subdued all of His enemies, including death last (the Second General Resurrection).

After that, the Messiah - the Son of God - will turn over the Empire to God the Father, who will then be "all in all."

So, we have here the difference between the Kingdom of the Son of man and the Kingdom of their Father!

Now, the TIMING here is in sync with that of Revelation chapters 20-22. We have the Messiah's Kingdom in Revelation 20:4-6 that begins with the Second Coming of the Messiah, when the First Resurrection occurs.

Then, haSatan is released from the Abyss and deceives the nations one more time before the Fire falls from the sky in Revelation 20:7-9, and they all are then resurrected to stand at the Great White Throne for judgment. This is the Second Resurrection in Revelation 20:10-15.

Then, the New Earth and the New Sky are re-made and the New Jerusalem descends and the Kingdom of God the Father begins in Revelation 21:1-8.

 

SO, it's very important that one understands that Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't have the angels THROWING them into the Fire at the Messiah's Second Coming, which is the time of the FIRST Resurrection, but Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 DOES have them being THROWN into the Fire, which is mirrored in Revelation 20:10-15!

Instead, in Matthew 25:31-46, Yeshua` said, "THESE shall go away (of their own power and choice)" to their doom, which will yet be 1,000 years away! The Greek word here is "ἀπελεύσονται" which is a future tense, indicative mood, middle voice verb with a third-person, plural subject. The "middle voice" means that they are "doing it for themselves."

 

Now, ALL of these nations are before the King. Have you SEEN how big the Valley of Hinnowm (Hebrew: Gei-Hinnowm = Greek: Gehenna), just outside of the Old City of Jerusalem, is? ALL of the individuals of these nations COULDN'T FIT in that valley at the same time! However, since this is a judgment of the NATIONS that participated in the war for Yeshua`s Land - YHWH'S Land, then it makes sense that those who will attend this war tribunal would be the leaders and representatives and diplomats from these countries who would then be forced to return to their countries with the Messiah's verdict for or against that nation.

I've tried to be extra clear here. I hope my weakness hasn't muddled it to you.

[Uriah]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Let's look at it again!

Your version makes believers wait 1,000 yrs. to "enter into the joy of thy lord"!!!

Everything in Matt 25:31-46 happens, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him"

There is no 1,000 yr. waiting period. 

[Montana Marv]

One needs to look at this in two time frames.

At the Second Coming the Angels gather the elect to view this event. From one end of the heavens to the other, and from one end of the earth to the other (the four winds).  To Daniel it is said that at the end of the age you shall arise and receive your inheritance (which is the Land promised to Abraham).  In my opinion at that time the earth will be inhabited by Jews who made it out alive to the Second Coming, resurrected Jews (Daniel and such); along with those of every nation who made it out of the time before the Second Coming; all living together on earth.

Now at the time of the end of the Kingdom age when Satan has been absent for 1,000 years, he will be let loose to deceive the nations one more time.

Those who came out of the Great Tribulation alive from every nation still have a sin nature which they will pass on the their children and their descendants; inherited from Adam.  This is why Christ must rule with a "rod of Iron".  They grow together on earth with those who reside in the Land.  They must come yearly to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.   At the end of this Age Satan then influences many to follow him, all are destroyed, gathered by the Angels and thrown into the Lake of Fire where the False Prophet and the Beast reside.  The wheat from all generations will inhabit the New Jerusalem.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Your version makes believers wait 1,000 yrs. to "enter into the joy of thy lord"!!!

Everything in Matt 25:31-46 happens, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him"

There is no 1,000 yr. waiting period. 

Shalom, Uriah.

Wrong on two counts, brother.

First, WITHIN HIS KINGDOM, we can "enter into the joy of our Master." When He sees we've done our best and have used His "talents" to the best of our ability and accomplished what we could for Him, then He'll be pleased with us. THAT'S the "joy of our Master."

Second, it's not a 1,000-year "waiting period!" It's a 1,000-year WORKING period! God doesn't reward sloth, nor does His Son! Does "ruling and reigning with the Messiah" sound like "resting?!" Just like any job, it will take time and effort to get on top of the situation at the beginning, but when one is at the point where everything is under control, THEN one may be able to relax a little.

See, there's waiting and there's waiting!

To "wait upon the Lord" is not to stand there tapping one's foot, arms crossed, and gently whistling, nor is it to lay back and rest for a millennium!

To "wait upon the Lord" is to work like a waiter or a waitress! To do His every bidding is what it means to "wait upon the Master!" He'll have MANY servants; so, you won't be worked to death, but the minute you hear your name, you're to jump up and do your work, eager to please your Master

Part of that job will be to work in the role of a ruler over a city or a region, perhaps even a country, to make sure that our Lord's rulership is represented in that city, region, or country! We are to report back to Him any irregularities that need His PERSONAL attention, but mostly we will be required to handle the smaller matters.

The Messiah of God, the King of kings, Yeshua` Natsratiy won't be "ruling and reigning" by magic! He'll be ruling and reigning by WISDOM and by STRENGTH and by His Father God's AUTHORITY!

Like Shlomoh, He'll be able to turn a real profit for His Kingdom of Israel. People will be hanging on His every word when He makes a public speech! (Like the old E. F. Hutton commercial, "When E. F. Hutton speaks, everyone listens," when the Messiah speaks, everyone really will listen!)

Psalm 2:1-12 tells us that there WILL be resistance to His rulership, and it will TAKE TIME to "SUBDUE" an enemy nation, but He SHALL subdue them all!

See, we're missing a LOT of prophetic Scripture when we think we're just "going off to Heaven and living happily ever after!"

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

One needs to look at this in two time frames.

At the Second Coming the Angels gather the elect to view this event. From one end of the heavens to the other, and from one end of the earth to the other (the four winds).  To Daniel it is said that at the end of the age you shall arise and receive your inheritance (which is the Land promised to Abraham).  In my opinion at that time the earth will be inhabited by Jews who made it out alive to the Second Coming, resurrected Jews (Daniel and such); along with those of every nation who made it out of the time before the Second Coming; all living together on earth.

Shalom, Montana Marv.

I just have a few small points and then a large one.

Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse said,

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark's account said,

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

And, Luke's account said,

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

The "from the four winds" part covers North, South, East, and West, all horizontal directions. The "from one end of heaven to the other" or "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" covers the VERTICAL direction! The "uttermost part of the earth" is as far below as one can go, and the "uttermost part of heaven" is the highest point one can go. Matthew just talked about the sky: "from one end of heaven," the LOWEST part of the sky, "to the other," the HIGHEST part of the sky!

Luke didn't bother to say either. He just said, "Look up, and tilt your head back to see the skies because you're about to be gathered by the angels (messengers)!" Matthew adds that there will be a loud trumpet blast!

This, in my opinion, matches what is said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There's no room for a "rapture" except as part of the gathering by the angels at the Second Coming. And, because this involves the resurrection of the dead, it includes 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 O  death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Now, for the major point:

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Now at the time of the end of the Kingdom age when Satan has been absent for 1,000 years, he will be let loose to deceive the nations one more time.

Those who came out of the Great Tribulation (which was BEFORE the Millennium) alive from every nation still have a sin nature which they will pass on the their children and their descendants; inherited from Adam.  This is why Christ must rule with a "rod of Iron".  They grow together on earth with those who reside in the Land.  They must come yearly to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.   At the end of this Age Satan then influences many to follow him, all are destroyed, gathered by the Angels and thrown into the Lake of Fire where the False Prophet and the Beast reside.  The wheat from all generations will inhabit the New Jerusalem.

In Christ

Montana Marv

So, from the Great Tribulation until the gathering by the angels to be "thrown into the Lake of Fire," where do the Christians go? And, if you say "they will be in Heaven" or "they will be in the New Jerusalem," why are we there when the Messiah Yeshua` is down on earth in old Jerusalem?! And, HOW do we "rule and reign WITH the Messiah," when we're in TWO SEPARATE PLACES?!

I don't know that you actually believe that, but I know some on this forum do. So, I just want to find out from you where you think Christians will be during the Millennium.

[Uriah]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

See, there's waiting and there's waiting!

We are certainly now waiting for our Lord from heaven. 

Rev 7:15-  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Am uncountable multitude before His throne, THAT is where we'll be! When? When He sends the angels to gather the elect. So shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 12:26- If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

His throne will be in New Jerusalem. At the seventh trumpet, His reward is with Him. (not 1,000 yrs later)

I cannot personally believe your offshoot of Jehovah Witness doctrine.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

We are certainly now waiting for our Lord from heaven. 

Rev 7:15-  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Am uncountable multitude before His throne, THAT is where we'll be! When? When He sends the angels to gather the elect. So shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 12:26- If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

His throne will be in New Jerusalem. At the seventh trumpet, His reward is with Him. (not 1,000 yrs later)

I cannot personally believe your offshoot of Jehovah Witness doctrine.

Shalom, Uriah.

Oh, brother! You could have gone ANYWHERE but there! Shame on you! I have absolutely NOTHING to do with the supposed "Jehovah's Witnesses." I know their most important theology is bad when it comes to their "works-based salvation."

So, your attack on me is hitting below the belt! Again, SHAME ON YOU! I take PERSONAL OFFENSE to this statement!

They say, though, that when one doesn't have any argument against your logic, they will resort to a personal attack, instead. I guess they're right!

And, neither of your Scriptural attacks hit their mark!

Revelation 7:9-17 (KJV)

9 After this (the sealing of the 144,000 children of Israel) I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Salvation to (Rescue from) our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb!"

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying,

"Amen (Truth!): Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. (Truth!)"

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,  

"What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

14 And I said unto him,

"Sir, thou knowest."

And he said to me,

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

There are two other places in Scripture where we see these words: Revelation 21-22 and Isaiah 25 and 49. What we are seeing here is a LITERAL group of people which are alive once again! They are bodies that can wear robes, they have hands that can hold palm leaves, they have vocal folds so they can "cry with a loud voice," and they can stand! And, they have faces upon which they can fall in reverence!

This isn't a scene "from Heaven"; this is a scene on the earth after their resurrection!

Our Lord Yeshua` doesn't need a specific throne! ANYWHERE the Messiah of God, the King of Israel, sits in judgment IS His judgment throne! It could be a backless bench, as David's throne was, or it could be an enormous, elaborate throne like Shlomoh ("Solomon") had! It's like in England when the Queen is in a particular residence! Wherever she is, SHE makes the residence the royal palace and her flag is flown there!

John 12:26 is a verse pulled out of context. He is talking about His very near death because He has just entered Jerusalem being honored as the King arriving, but the people did not believe in Him or accept Him. He knew His time was almost up; so, He said,

John 12:20-41 (KJV)

20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: 21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying,

"Sir, we would see Jesus."

22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. 23 And Jesus answered them, saying,

"The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me (subjunctive mood), let him follow me (present imperative active); and where I am (present indicative active), there shall also my servant be (future tense, indicative middle): if any man serve me (subjunctive mood), him will my Father honour (future tense, indicative active).

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'?: but for this cause came I unto this hour! 28 Father, glorify thy name."

Then came there a voice from heaven, saying,

"I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."

29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said,

"An angel spake to him!"

30 Jesus answered and said,

"This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. 34 The people answered him,

"We have heard out of the law that Christ (the Messiah) abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, 'The Son of man must be lifted up'? who is this 'Son of man'?"

35 Then Jesus said unto them,

"Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light."

These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,

"Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?" (Isaiah 53:1)

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 

40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." (Isaiah 6:10)

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[not an echo]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:15 AM, Retrobyter said:

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

After another weekend away, I can't believe what has happened to my thread---again.  Well, let me see if I can pry it back on track---again.  As with a train, this may take some time.

Shalom, @not an echo.

My contribution may SEEM like a partial derailment, but please understand that I USED TO BELIEVE in a pretribulational rapture. However, things that I've been taught by the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) have led me down a different path over the last 45 years.

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, not an echo said:

Whatever is believed about anything revealed in Scripture, it has to be understood in a way that will align with everything revealed in Scripture.  And, how things may look on the surface is rarely enough to show what truly lies underneath.

I believe this, too.

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, not an echo said:

You say what you do about "Pretrib" being "a conclusion in search of support."  I would like to think that we are truly like the noble Bereans who "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11).  This is a thing that involves "study" and "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (II Tim. 2:15).  After this, we have our Christian discussions, which can be complicated (something Satan delights in) by the diversity of terms that are used. 

Yes, I agree with this, too. HOWEVER, definitions are key to a proper understanding of Scripture, and NOT in the English translations we have! HaSatan (Hebrew for "The Enemy") relishes in those who CANNOT BE TAUGHT, too!

Some have the attitude as if to say, "I know what I believe! Don't confuse me with the facts!" I'm thinking about a few right here in this very topic (but I won't mention names).

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, not an echo said:

For me, this is especially true with terms like "Pretrib" and "GT" (which I do understand is your abbreviation for "great tribulation").  So, starting out with this discussion, realize that I much prefer Pre-Daniel's 70th Week over "Pretrib" to describe my rapture position---something I have spoken of often.

I understand what you are saying here, but know this: NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that the 70th Week CONTAINS the "great tribulation," either! That's been a "constant companion" for everyone who believes in a rapture in relationship to the 70th Week. That's been true for pretrib, midtrib, pre-wrath, and even classic posttrib. They always associate the words of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 with this 70th Week in some way!

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, not an echo said:

Also, I much prefer keeping with the understanding that great tribulation is merely that---great tribulation.  As you know, I have a thread concerning this, that I developed for the purpose of helping keep my thread(s) on track when discussions veer in this direction (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).  And yes (of course), Jesus said there is coming a time in the future when there is going to be "great tribulation",  but importantly, He qualifies what He says thus: "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  It should be realized that Jesus' words do not indicate that there had never been, or would be, such a thing as "great tribulation" till Daniel's 70th Week.  What He meant is that there is coming a time of great tribulation like there has never been, or ever will be again.  I would think that by now we would be able to move beyond discussions on this particular.

And, your thread on the great tribulation confirms that observation.

In mathematical set theory, you're saying that "the period of great tribulation is a subset of the 70th Week." However, there's no PROOF of that statement in Scripture!

In fact, within the purposes for the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9, found in verse 24, there's not even a HINT at "great tribulation!" The man Gabriel said,

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. 

25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

For some odd reason which was never made clear to me in 20 years of believing pre-trib, pre-trib believers have come to the conclusion that there is a delay - a "gap" of time - between the 69th and the 70th Weeks, but ... WHY would there be a "gap?" NOTHING in the passage of Daniel 9:24-27 above demands such a "gap" of time between those Weeks! So, why have pre-trib believers come to that conclusion? I'm not sure which came first, "the chicken or the egg," so to speak, but either they needed the gap of time inserted somewhere OR they needed to equate the "tribulation period" within the 70th Week. However, one was related to the other, and it really doesn't match the scenario in Daniel 9.

Let's just start there, first. Why do you believe there must be a "gap" of time between the 69rh and the 70th Weeks?

Hello Retrobyter,

While I have been away, I have been mindful of your post as a whole and of your last question more specifically.  You asked, "Why do you believe there must be a 'gap' of time between the 69th and the 70th Weeks?"  While a focus on Daniel's 70th Week deserves a thread all it own, and while looking here too long could easily distract from---what is supposed to be---the focus of my thread, I would like to clarify my position on this somewhat and in a way that will help towards getting my thread back on track.  I will probably work up my own thread on the subject of Daniel's 70th Week at some time in the future, when I have more time to give to it.  I just don't have the time presently.

Concerning your question, a help in understanding Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy is to understand that this prophecy (Dan. 9:24-27) is the hub around which all of Daniel's prophecies revolve.  I am not seeing this expressed by anyone, but I would like to encourage you (and all) to study Daniel with this in mind.

Kinda concisely, and from a bird's-eye view, the end result of the "seventy weeks" (as we know, "weeks" means "sevened" in Hebrew/H7620) will be what is expressed in the opening verse of the prophecy (Dan. 9:24).  The fullness of this will be realized during Christ's Millennial Reign, which begins just after the fulfillment of the last week with Christ's Second Advent and the Battle of Armageddon.

Key to the seventy weeks prophecy was the "going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" (Dan. 9:25).  King Artaxerxes' commissioning of Nehemiah to rebuild the walls and city of Jerusalem (Neh. 2:1-8) best fits this criteria.  This happened approximately 445 B.C.  The prophecy reads that "from the going forth" of this commandment, "unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" (Dan. 9:25)---or 69 of the weeks (sevens).  Basically, when the 69 weeks are converted to years and these are adjusted to factor in the early 360 day Jewish calendar versus our modern 365.25 day calendar, the result coincides with the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, and there are evidences that the fulfillment of this prophecy is even more precise than this.

Interestingly, it is "after" the "threescore and two weeks" element of the aforementioned 69 weeks that it is said that the "Messiah" will be "cut off" (Dan. 9:26).  With the crucifixion of Christ, the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy finds its fulfillment.

This brings us to the remaining week (or seven).  The "prince that shall come" (Dan. 9:26) is the "he" that "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:  and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (Dan. 9:27).  This is not something that Jesus Christ did after He was "cut off", which travesty marked the completion, or fulfilling of the first 69 weeks.  Rather, what is said of the "he" points to the Antichrist (aka, the "man of sin" or "son of perdition" or A of D).

There are many last days and end times markers connected with Daniel's prophecies (e.g., 2:28;  7:9-11;  8:17, 19, 23, 26;  10:14;  11:35, 40).  Moreover, of what was revealed to him, Daniel was told in chapter 12...

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

A little further, Daniel continues thus...

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed TILL THE TIME OF THE END.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Well, we know that "the end" has not yet come, and there is yet one week (or seven) of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy remaining to be fulfilled.  Now Retrobyter, this is where it starts getting good.  In Revelation 10 we find this...

1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

This "little book" that is at this time seen "open" is the little book of Daniel.  While this is shown by what we read above (Dan. 12:4, 8-10) and by what is said in Revelation 10:7, it is established in the opening three verses of Revelation 11, which read...

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months (3-1/2 years).

3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (3-1/2 years), clothed in sackcloth.

Unsurprisingly, here we have the first mention of two 3-1/2 year time periods.  Equally important---and for too long missed---is what we find in verse one.  Just because the "Temple of God" is here seen and "worship" is going on, it should not be supposed that it is Almighty God who is being worshiped.  Consider afresh Paul's words in II Thessalonians 2...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Christ's Second Advent) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Jesus also spoke to this in Matthew 24...

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Concerning the two 3-1/2 year periods of time first mentioned in Revelation 11:2-3, it is elementary to see that the 3-1/2 year period mentioned in verse three concerns the "two witnesses" and the time of their activity, which continues through verse 14 and corresponds with the first half of Daniel's 70th Week.  Moreover, as shown in verses 14-15, this 3-1/2 year period will be fulfilled just before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet...  

14 The second woe IS PAST; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, we have an overview of the period that is heralded by this trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19), which is expounded in chapters 12-20.  Again, unsurprisingly, we then begin to see mentions of the other 3-1/2 year period (12:6, 14;  13:5), which corresponds with the last half of Daniel's 70th Week.

There is a very interesting structure to The Revelation that begins to manifest itself when all of this is understood---a structure that bespeaks the hand of God at work even in the verse and chapter divisions of The Revelation.  What do I mean?  The first 10 chapters of The Revelation are in such a strict chronological order that it is not even within the realm of possibility for them to be more chronological.  They bring us to the time of the little book of Daniel being seen "open" (chp. 10), as the world's stage is at this time reset for the fulfilling of the 70th Week.  Beginning with chapter 11 and continuing through chapter 20, there is still a strictness to the chronological order of The Revelation, but with a consistent overlap of information---without fail.  These second 10 chapters concern Daniel's 70th Week, the capstone of which is Christ's Second Advent (chp. 19) and Millennial Reign (chp. 20), this latter making for the ultimate fulfillment of what the "Seventy weeks" were "determined" for, namely, "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy" (Dan. 9:24).  For some helpful illustrations and more on the chronological order of The Revelation, see the opening post (or any post of mine) in my thread titled, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).

So much more can be said.  For now, for here, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that will not end until after the Last Judgment, which comes after Christ's Millennial Reign (Rev. 20).  Then will begin that "Happily Ever After" part for God and all of His saved.  On the other hand, the "Trump of God" is the "great sound of a trumpet" that will be sounded to assemble those who are saved at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal of the Seven Sealed Book.  This trumpet should not be confused with the 7th Trumpet, which will not be sounded until the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week.  The day the 6th Seal is opened, the stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week will begin.  As the NT Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, it will not be a part of the fulfilling of the 70th Week.  Also, evidences support that as what is in our Western Hemisphere did not factor in in the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, it will not factor in in the 70th Week.  This supports that, at the appointed time, God is going to do something staggering to effect the bringing of the world's focus once again to bear upon the lands of the Bible days for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week---as with the other 69 weeks.  This is what I mean by the stage reset.  I don't know if you ever saw the opening post of my first thread on this forum, but I hope you will consider it.  I titled it, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).  The possibility of what these trumpets concern has not ceased to engage me since the possibility dawned on me.  Continuing, the sounding of the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:1-11) and the "five months" spoken of during this period will allow for some stabilization upon the earth from the preceding cataclysms.  This time will also facilitate the rise of the Antichrist to power---before the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week.  The sounding of the 6th Trumpet and the part of this period (Rev. 9:12-21) that precedes the little book of Daniel being seen "open" concerns the final elements of the stage reset, with a focus upon taking the Far East out of the picture---again, so that the focus is brought to bear more fully upon the lands of the Bible days for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  I really need to be going for now.  For a more complete picture of how all the prophetic puzzles pieces fit together, I would encourage you to look at the opening three posts of my thread titled, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  There it can be seen how the various elements of the last days come together in support of my position.