Unclean spirits with regional interests

[Marathoner]

15 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Could "Babylon the Great" be the location on earth with the highest concentration of demonic activity?  

Revelation 18:2:  "And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast."  

Not necessarily, my friend. Consider Zion of the Lord, and how Israel is both His chosen and holy nation, transcending concerns of this flesh and earthly real estate. 

Now consider Babylon the great, mother of harlots and abominations on earth. Babylon is not a principality but rather a spiritual empire of ungodliness and wickedness manifesting on this earth. The principalities of the dark princes are therefore of Babylon; the principalities are territories of Babylon. 

[Marathoner]

Personal experience so take this with a grain of salt if you will. No scripture to back it up.  

The Lord raised me up close to a throne of spiritual wickedness, the heart of a principality of unspeakable evil on this earth. What is the hallmark of this principality or its sphere of influence? Drugs, murder, and terror.  

Drugs... manufactured and trafficked by drug cartels. The Lord lifted me up in the wilderness stomping grounds of one of the most vicious Mexican drug cartels, Los Zetas. 

Murder... carried out by the drug cartels, children of the devil, and their accomplices like MS-13. People disappeared with a regularity where the Lord raised me up. 

Terror... as can only be experienced living in the midst of unspeakable evil and suffering. The drugs only become more deadly, and the murders never end, for this is the work of the terrible prince and his minions who are legion. 

All of this superimposed over the world of men, bleeding into the affairs of men, and in effect ruling over the affairs of fallen men in this fallen world. 

[BibleReader]

13 hours ago, Michael37 said:

 God did not replace the Hebrew tree with a Gentile tree, He grafted us into the Hebrew tree. This is fulfillment theology, the Church is the fulfillment of all the promises Yahweh made to Israel. The root now supports two types of branches, cultivated and wild, and together they are "one" tree:

I'm glad you mentioned this because I believed something similar. Now, I feel I have broadened my viewpoint. And as you have said before, understanding the context is very important.  I'd like to share an interesting twist and you can take it for what it's worth. I think that a rigorous study to make sure there are no cracks in our beliefs is vital.  

Please notice the following:  

• Romans 11:25-27:  ". . .A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

You probably agree that these verses are pointing to the future.  I believe it's very important to note the context of the verses that Paul was actually quoting here, apparently Isaiah 59:20, 21 in part and Isaiah 27:9.  You will see what appears to be a future punishment of Israel, a "final punishment" in line with Ezekiel's prophecy. (Ezekiel 35:5)   Please read Isaiah 59.  Notice the list of Israel's sins mentioned there (verses 2-17), also notice the vengeance God takes because of it (Verse 18), see how a deliverer would come at that time (verse 20) and how eternal blessings would ensue (Verse 21).  Doesn't this seem like a "final punishment" before blessings come in?  It wouldn't be "spiritual Israel" that is deserving of a "final punishment" correct, or could it be literal Israel yet once again?  Now in Isaiah 27, notice how in verses 7 and 8, Israel would be punished and later in verse 9, the error of Israel will be atoned for.  Verses 12 and 13 continue the thought with the expression "in that day" and then mention future blessings.  Some Bible commentaries try to force an application of these scriptures to the past, but they simply don't fit well at all for various reasons.  Paul, though, was apparently quoting the verses mentioned above when pointing to the future.  Why? Why did Paul believe that those prophecies had a future application? 

13 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Yeah, I usually adapt from the KJV, where it is obvious the punishment of Zedekiah is in view, the day when his iniquity final comes to an end as he is deposed, his sons killed, his eyes put out, and he is led away captive.

This definitely seems plausible.

13 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Yeah, past tense though so not actually prophesying what Edom will do at a future time but stating what Edom has done and will be punished for. Judas Maccabeus conquered their territory for a time around 163 BC.[45] They were again subdued by John Hyrcanus (c. 125 BC), who forcibly converted them, among others, to Judaism,[46] and incorporated them into the Jewish nation.[34] [Wkpd]

In Jude 14 and 15 you may notice that Enoch spoke in the past tense as if God had already done what the prophecy describes.

Note also the mixing of past and future tenses in the prophecy concerning the Messiah at Isaiah 52:13–53:12.

Also, if you believe that the events of the book of Revelation are pointing the future as many do, notice that the past tense is used throughout.  

Going back to Edom for a moment.  I used to believe strongly that many of the prophecies regarding Edom were fulfilled already.  I then began to research the matter further and I came across some shocking finds.

Notice the following prophecies:

• “Edom will become an object of horror; everyone who passes by it will be appalled and will hiss at all its wounds.  Like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah with its neighbors,” says the Lord, “no one will live there, nor will anyone of mankind reside in it."  (Jeremiah 49:17, 18)
• ". . .From generation to generation it will be desolate; none will pass through it forever and ever."  (Isaiah 34:10)

Petra in Jordan is described by archaeologists to be a territory of ancient Edom. "Petra was inhabited by the Edomites before the arrival of the Nabateans" according to an official website from Jordan. Nevertheless, Edom extended much farther than Petra. Although the prophecies clearly state that "no one will live there" and "none will pass through it forever", this is currently not the case. "More than 1 million people visited Petra last year." Furthermore, although some might think that Petra would be completely uninhabited due to the Biblical prophecies, the truth is that "few Bedouins still live inside the historic site of Petra, dating to around 300 B.C." according to National Geographic as can be seen here. Mofleh Bdoul was born there and has continued to live there all of his life. A photo of his cozy, spacious home that has been adapted inside a cave can be seen in the link.

Now, the capital of Edom was Bozrah. (Isaiah 34:6, 63:1; Jeremiah 49:13; Amos 1:12; Genesis 36:31, 33) The Bible says that it would be ruins for all time.

• "For I have sworn by Myself,” declares the Lord, “that Bozrah will become an object of horror, a disgrace, a wasteland, and a curse; and all its cities will become permanent ruins.”"  (Jeremiah 49:13)

Bozrah or Busaira (Arabic: بُصَيْرا‎) is located in Tafilah Governorate, Jordan, between the towns of Tafilah (Tophel) and Shoubak (it is closer to this town).  According to the general census taken in 2015, it has a population of 10,587.

The prophecy of Jeremiah doesn't say that a few would live in Edom, it specifically says "no one will live there"--zero.  Since this is not currently the case, will it be fulfilled in the future?  

If Edom has already been done away with, why then is Edom described in a conflict "at the time of the end"?  (Daniel 11:40-43)  

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by BibleReader

[Michael37]

8 hours ago, BibleReader said:

I'm glad you mentioned this because I believed something similar. Now, I feel I have broadened my viewpoint. And as you have said before, understanding the context is very important.  I'd like to share an interesting twist and you can take it for what it's worth. I think that a rigorous study to make sure there are no cracks in our beliefs is vital.  

Please notice the following:  

• Romans 11:25-27:  ". . .A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

You probably agree that these verses are pointing to the future.  I believe it's very important to note the context of the verses that Paul was actually quoting here, apparently Isaiah 59:20, 21 in part and Isaiah 27:9.  You will see what appears to be a future punishment of Israel, a "final punishment" in line with Ezekiel's prophecy. (Ezekiel 35:5)   Please read Isaiah 59.  Notice the list of Israel's sins mentioned there (verses 2-17), also notice the vengeance God takes because of it (Verse 18), see how a deliverer would come at that time (verse 20) and how eternal blessings would ensue (Verse 21).  Doesn't this seem like a "final punishment" before blessings come in?  It wouldn't be "spiritual Israel" that is deserving of a "final punishment" correct, or could it be literal Israel yet once again?  Now in Isaiah 27, notice how in verses 7 and 8, Israel would be punished and later in verse 9, the error of Israel will be atoned for.  Verses 12 and 13 continue the thought with the expression "in that day" and then mention future blessings.  Some Bible commentaries try to force an application of these scriptures to the past, but they simply don't fit well at all for various reasons.  Paul, though, was apparently quoting the verses mentioned above when pointing to the future.  Why? Why did Paul believe that those prophecies had a future application? 

This definitely seems plausible.

In Jude 14 and 15 you may notice that Enoch spoke in the past tense as if God had already done what the prophecy describes.

Note also the mixing of past and future tenses in the prophecy concerning the Messiah at Isaiah 52:13–53:12.

Also, if you believe that the events of the book of Revelation are pointing the future as many do, notice that the past tense is used throughout.  

Going back to Edom for a moment.  I used to believe strongly that many of the prophecies regarding Edom were fulfilled already.  I then began to research the matter further and I came across some shocking finds.

Notice the following prophecies:

• “Edom will become an object of horror; everyone who passes by it will be appalled and will hiss at all its wounds.  Like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah with its neighbors,” says the Lord, “no one will live there, nor will anyone of mankind reside in it."  (Jeremiah 49:17, 18)
• ". . .From generation to generation it will be desolate; none will pass through it forever and ever."  (Isaiah 34:10)

Petra in Jordan is described by archaeologists to be a territory of ancient Edom. "Petra was inhabited by the Edomites before the arrival of the Nabateans" according to an official website from Jordan. Nevertheless, Edom extended much farther than Petra. Although the prophecies clearly state that "no one will live there" and "none will pass through it forever", this is currently not the case. "More than 1 million people visited Petra last year." Furthermore, although some might think that Petra would be completely uninhabited due to the Biblical prophecies, the truth is that "few Bedouins still live inside the historic site of Petra, dating to around 300 B.C." according to National Geographic as can be seen here. Mofleh Bdoul was born there and has continued to live there all of his life. A photo of his cozy, spacious home that has been adapted inside a cave can be seen in the link.

Now, the capital of Edom was Bozrah. (Isaiah 34:6, 63:1; Jeremiah 49:13; Amos 1:12; Genesis 36:31, 33) The Bible says that it would be ruins for all time.

• "For I have sworn by Myself,” declares the Lord, “that Bozrah will become an object of horror, a disgrace, a wasteland, and a curse; and all its cities will become permanent ruins.”"  (Jeremiah 49:13)

Bozrah or Busaira (Arabic: بُصَيْرا‎) is located in Tafilah Governorate, Jordan, between the towns of Tafilah (Tophel) and Shoubak (it is closer to this town).  According to the general census taken in 2015, it has a population of 10,587.

The prophecy of Jeremiah doesn't say that a few would live in Edom, it specifically says "no one will live there"--zero.  Since this is not currently the case, will it be fulfilled in the future?  

If Edom has already been done away with, why then is Edom described in a conflict "at the time of the end"?  (Daniel 11:40-43)  

 

Sorry BibleReader, but what a quagmire of misinterpretation you present. From my perspective in light of the explanations I have given, you have willfully gone so far off track with your last post that I am now suspecting some spirit of falsehood that causes you to enjoy refuting and conflating sound doctrine. I can go no further with you on this thread. 

[Marathoner]

22 hours ago, Michael37 said:

A future where there is only one good olive tree. 

The Good Olive Tree Explained

 God did not replace the Hebrew tree with a Gentile tree, He grafted us into the Hebrew tree. This is fulfillment theology, the Church is the fulfillment of all the promises Yahweh made to Israel. The root now supports two types of branches, cultivated and wild, and together they are "one" tree:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:28-29 NASB

Yeah, I usually adapt from the KJV, where it is obvious the punishment of Zedekiah is in view, the day when his iniquity final comes to an end as he is deposed, his sons killed, his eyes put out, and he is led away captive.

From Wkpd

At the end of Zedekiah's eleven-year reign, Nebuchadnezzar succeeded in capturing Jerusalem. Zedekiah and his followers attempted to escape, making their way out of the city, but were captured on the plains of Jericho, and were taken to Riblah.

There, after seeing his sons put to death, his own eyes were put out, and, being loaded with chains, he was carried captive to Babylon (2 Kings 25:1–7; 2 Chronicles 36:12; Jeremiah 32:4–5; 34:2–3; 39:1–7; 52:4–11; Ezekiel 12:13), where he remained a prisoner until he died.

After the fall of Jerusalem, Nebuzaradan was sent to destroy it. The city was plundered and razed to the ground. Solomon's Temple was destroyed. Only a small number of vinedressers and husbandmen were permitted to remain in the land (Jeremiah 52:16).

Yeah, past tense though so not actually prophesying what Edom will do at a future time but stating what Edom has done and will be punished for. Judas Maccabeus conquered their territory for a time around 163 BC.[45] They were again subdued by John Hyrcanus (c. 125 BC), who forcibly converted them, among others, to Judaism,[46] and incorporated them into the Jewish nation.[34] [Wkpd]

Quote from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

God espouses his people's cause, and will plead it, takes what is done against them as done against himself, and will reckon for it; and it is upon their account that God now contends with the Edomites.

1. Because of the enmity they had against the people of God, that was rooted in the heart. “Thou hast had a perpetual hatred to them, to the very name of an Israelite.” The Edomites kept up an hereditary malice against Israel, the same that Esau bore to Jacob, because he got the birth-right and the blessing. Esau had been reconciled to Jacob, had embraced and kissed him (Gen. 33), and we do not find that ever he quarrelled with him again. But the posterity of Esau would never be reconciled to the seed of Jacob, but hated them with a perpetual hatred.

2. Because of the injuries they had done to the people of God. They shed their blood by the force of the sword, in the time of their calamity; they did not attack them as fair and open enemies, but laid wait for them, to cut off those of them that had escaped (Oba_1:14), or they drove them back upon the sword of the pursuers, by which they fell. It was cowardly, as well as barbarous, to take advantage of their distress; and for neighbours, with whom they had lived peaceably, to smite them secretly when strangers openly invaded them. It was in the time that their iniquity had an end, when the measure of it was full and destruction came.

Yes,

1Co 13:9-12  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  (10)  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.  (11)  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.  (12)  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Yes, I believe the 12 tribes and 12 thrones and 144 thousand of Revelation are post-resurrection of the saints.

I appreciate the very informative post, brother. "Fulfillment theology" is what I once I conceptualized as unification theology. We are indeed grafted into a Hebrew tree and the scriptures testify of this, referring to us (gentiles) as wild branches. Both the natural branches and wild branches are nourished by the same root. We are Hebrews by adoption (grafting).  

A pity that things in this topic progressed the way they did. Ah well. 

[leah777]

As gardeners will know, if you graft a different apple tree onto the root and trunk of another one, the grafted one bears the fruit. The fruit is from the grafted part. I am looking at my grafted apple tree in my garden as I type.

something to think about?

[Michael37]

34 minutes ago, leah777 said:

As gardeners will know, if you graft a different apple tree onto the root and trunk of another one, the grafted one bears the fruit. The fruit is from the grafted part. I am looking at my grafted apple tree in my garden as I type.

something to think about?

@leah777 Yes, it would seem odd in the natural for a gardener to graft a wild olive into a good olive because the fruit would still be the same poor quality of the wild olive, but in the spiritual where God is the Gardener the wild olive branch is transformed by grace before it is grafted into the good olive, to become PARTAKERS of its richness, not CONVERTED by its richness.

Rom 11:16-18  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.  (17)  And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree;  (18)  Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you.

To restate, the believing Gentile branches are holy because of the root which gave us Christ as its firstfruit. The unbelieving Hebrew branches are broken off, but a believing remnant get grafted back in the same as the believing Gentiles. It's all about the holy root and the holy firstfruit.

[Beckett]

Jesus words are not limited to eras, they are timeless and speaks of underlying patterns that are constant in the world. So what does "This evil generation" mean? well, just look around you. There has always been "the evil generation" for the religious inclined, although some generations worse than others. This generation however is pretty bad. 

Babylon is the seat of idolatry, the worship of things, idols, oneself etc. And again, look around you. It´s the world today. Babylon, as a state, a state of mind, stills exist. And from the higher immaterial world, there are only states, as in state of mind.

And they have regional interest, just look how the US has exported it´s culture of trash and degrading gore. The US government as a "principality" is exporting itself, which is a state of mind. A lowly state of mind. Thats the beast, a lowly state of mind that seeks to enter you.  

How can prophecies exist? cause mystics have delved deep into the nature of man and seen the underlying pattern.

 

The true Trinity does not exist in church, and the priest does not preach it. God is not in the church. The true Trinity is you, the holy ghost, and God. Now, you can replace the holy ghost with logos. You, the word, God. But this triangle does not work if you have You, The human community, God. Man runs along in circles, and his language is habitual, it is not configurated in a way that supports the spiritual life. My favorite trinity is this one: "You, Alice, God" (Alice as in Alice in wonderland) cause thats what you really are doing. Alice being the rabbit that leads one from dream or nightmare to awakening.

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Beckett

[R. Hartono]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:40 AM, BibleReader said:

Jesus was about to expel an unclean spirit from a man, and something may be learned by the dialogue that ensued.  

• Mark 5:8 -11:  “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” And he begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country."

Why didn't "Legion" want to leave Israel?  Why did Jesus grant his request?

Unclean spirits seem to have power over certain regions and have resisted powerful angels in the past:

•  Daniel 10:13:  "The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia."  
•  Daniel 10:20:  "Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come."  

At Matthew 12:43-45, some Bible commentators believe that Jesus was referring to the nation of Israel in the past, whereas others believe that there may be some sort of application of it in the future since the verses refer to the unclean spirits returning.

• Matthew 12:43-45:  "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order.  Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

Here are my questions for you:  What did Jesus mean with the words "this evil generation", was he referring to a specific nation or something else?  If he was referring to a nation, when in history did the unclean spirit return with "seven other spirits more evil than itself", or is it pointing to the future instead of the past?  Lastly, which area on earth are the unclean spirits most interested in today?  

It cud be this legion of devil that created Arab religion that deny Christ resurrection . As this devil showed regional interest in Israel land.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by R. Hartono