80% of Christians Do Not Hold to a PreTrib Rapture

[DeighAnn]

21 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 

God wants us to escape the great tribulation before it begins !

 

Yes, those things are going on today.  

You keep saying it and all you can produce is 'kept from the hour' and 'not to suffer wrath'.  Both of those come by faith, not escape.  Escape is a man made idea.  It is not written any where in Gods word.  

Think about it.  He accomplished His divine mission as Saviour.  'It is finished'.
So He isn't returning as Saviour to save.


When He returns it is as Lord of lords and King of kings.  


So you absolutely must know the answer to my question

If He isn't coming to bring in the Kingdom of God, isn't coming again as Saviour,  and Isn't coming as Lord of lords and King of kings (on the day of vengeance)

then WHO IS HE COMING AS?  And where is that written?   

WHAT we do KNOW is when Jesus Himself was reading in the temple THESE VERY VERSES

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me; because the LORD hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;



 

Luke 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Luke 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?


WHAT did Jesus read?  Nothing about a pre trib rapture as NOTHING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SPEAKS TO ONE.  

What is it that followed IN THAT VERY PROPHECY?  


AND THE DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD;

to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.


AND WHAT WILL WE BE DOING DURING THE LORDS DAY?  

Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Isaiah 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Isaiah 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

Isaiah 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Isaiah 61:9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, 


AS A BRIDEGROOM DECKETH HIMSELF with ornaments,

and

AS A BRIDE ADORNETH HERSELF with her jewels.

Isaiah 61:11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth;

so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

SO tell me, where is it we find ANYTHING pre trib?  Here IN BLACK AND WHITE THE BRIDEGROOM AND THE BRIDE ARE SPOKEN OF AS COMING IN THE DAY OF THE LORD, 




NOT PRE TRIB.  


How is it, THIS COULD BE WRITTEN IF IT WEREN'T TRUTH?  


How is it NOT BELIEVED THAT

THAT FAITH AND KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM AND THE WHOLE ARMOR OF GODS WORD DOESN'T KEEP YOU FROM GODS WRATH AND OUT FROM TEMPTATION?  

NOT ONCE HAS GOD EVER TAKEN ANYONE TO HEAVEN TO KEEP THEM 'FROM'.  IT IS ALWAYS ONCE THEY HAVE ACCOMPLISHED, NEVER BEFORE.  


SHOW ME ONE PLACE WHERE IT IS STATED 'THE CHURCH' IS TAKEN TO HEAVEN.  

[Montana Marv]

On 5/2/2021 at 12:58 PM, Diaste said:

From Prophecy Watchers:

Gary Stearman: Rapture Wars

It may surprise you but 80% of Christians don’t believe in a pre-Tribulation rapture. Many are convinced the church will endure the entire 7 year Tribulation. Others teach that Christians will face part of the Tribulation. Still others believe the prophecies of the Bible were all fulfilled in 70 AD, tossing aside the book of Revelation and its end-time prophecies. 

With that being said one could say that 20 percent believe in pretrib. 5 percent believe post trib, 5 percent in midtrib and 5 percent in pre wrath. And 65 percent have no opinion. 

Your quoted numbers really have no meaning. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

With that being said one could say that 20 percent believe in pretrib. 5 percent believe post trib, 5 percent in midtrib and 5 percent in pre wrath. And 65 percent have no opinion. 

Your quoted numbers really have no meaning. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

I suppose you'll have to take that up with Prophecy Watchers and Gary Stearman.

It's interesting that one of the pretrib persuasion, Gary Stearman, is the one who is bringing this up.  

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's interesting that one of the pretrib persuasion, Gary Stearman, is the one who is bringing this up.  

Now if he would only honestly study to find out why... But don't count on it.

[Dennis1209]

Personally, I have a multitude of reasons and blessed hope of a pretribulation Rapture [harpázō]. To name a few: Enoch as a type of the Rapture, he was removed and taken from judgment. Noah being an example of being saved through judgment, as a remnant of the Jews through the Tribulation.

The traditional Jewish wedding exactly mirrors the Rapture of the church. The church mention 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation. Suddenly, when John sees Heaven, the church is never mentioned again until the end of the book [coincidence?]. From Revelation chapter 4 on, the focus has shifted to Israel and the Jews.

And lastly: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Caught up = harpázō. Paul used the pronoun “we”, because he thought it possible the Rapture could happen during his life.

[Dennis1209]

Fortunately the timing of the Rapture is a secondary issue and doesn't affect our Salvation or anything else, it's just a hermeneutic viewpoint. It's always nice to agree to disagree politely and respectfully. I'm not dogmatic on my viewpoint, as I've changed my opinion on a number of things with further study. 

There's been a number of scholars and Bible teachers who have changed their view on the timing of the Rapture; I'll use Kent Hovind as an example. All his life he held a pre-trib view, until his imprisonment. He switched his view that the Rapture occurs at the sixth seal judgement, of which I don't agree with his reasoning. 

I think Hovind is one of the most knowledgeable and articulate people in our generation on dinosaurs and creation, and does wonderful work in the service to our Lord. Our divergence on one secondary issue, doesn't put a bad taste in my mouth from not learning and listening to him.

A subject I've studied in detail, is the young earth vs. the old earth theory. If you're familiar with these two knowledgeable people. I'd love to listen to a debate between Kent Hovind and Michael S. Heiser on the aforementioned subject. 

[The Light]

On 5/3/2021 at 5:57 PM, Diaste said:

True. It's interesting to hear Mr. Stearman give the results of a survey that goes against a core belief of his. It proves nothing one way or the other but it does speak to a trend. 

Agreed, there is a trend that less people can see that there will be an pretribulation rapture and likely the trend will continue, as the word tells us.

2 Timothy 3

3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

² For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

³ Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

⁴ Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

⁵ Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

⁶ For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

⁷ Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[enoob57]

On 5/2/2021 at 1:58 PM, Diaste said:

From Prophecy Watchers:

Gary Stearman: Rapture Wars

It may surprise you but 80% of Christians don’t believe in a pre-Tribulation rapture. Many are convinced the church will endure the entire 7 year Tribulation. Others teach that Christians will face part of the Tribulation. Still others believe the prophecies of the Bible were all fulfilled in 70 AD, tossing aside the book of Revelation and its end-time prophecies. 

That's a relief The Scriptures say few there be that find it
Matt 7:14

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
KJV
 

[Diaste]

On 5/17/2021 at 3:46 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Personally, I have a multitude of reasons and blessed hope of a pretribulation Rapture [harpázō]. To name a few: Enoch as a type of the Rapture, he was removed and taken from judgment. Noah being an example of being saved through judgment, as a remnant of the Jews through the Tribulation.

Sure. I do not have a single reason as a contrast. I don't think it's mentioned why Enoch was taken except that he walked with God. Noah was not taken to heaven though. Saved from wrath, him and all his house, yes.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 3:46 PM, Dennis1209 said:

The traditional Jewish wedding exactly mirrors the Rapture of the church. The church mention 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation. Suddenly, when John sees Heaven, the church is never mentioned again until the end of the book [coincidence?]. From Revelation chapter 4 on, the focus has shifted to Israel and the Jews.

I don't know....who is in chapter 7 who came out of GT? I don't see any wording for a shift. Did I miss that? 

On 5/17/2021 at 3:46 PM, Dennis1209 said:

And lastly: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Caught up = harpázō. Paul used the pronoun “we”, because he thought it possible the Rapture could happen during his life.

Yes. This is the fact of the harpazo. No timing is here. In fact we see no pretrib timing anywhere. We do see a post trib timing in Matt 24 and Mark 13. I think Paul was saying 'we' as he was assured of the resurrection, dead or alive, in context of the group of believers of which he, and you and I, are a part. But I do agree the brethren were anticipating Jesus Return since that moment is the great unknown.

 

[Diaste]

On 5/17/2021 at 4:11 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Fortunately the timing of the Rapture is a secondary issue and doesn't affect our Salvation or anything else, it's just a hermeneutic viewpoint. It's always nice to agree to disagree politely and respectfully. I'm not dogmatic on my viewpoint, as I've changed my opinion on a number of things with further study. 

I think it is as the salvation of a person really depends on the view they hold of Christ. Is He Lord or no? If yes then every thing He has said reigns supreme. He said a great many things about His return and His kingdom which is a primary doctrine and the ultimate destiny of the church, the earth and Jesus, just prior to eternity. Belief in rapture timing doesn't equate to salvation, but equally important is building on the faith we receive. We need to be prepared by this knowledge and more else we may find ourselves adrift when the time comes and fall.

On 5/17/2021 at 4:11 PM, Dennis1209 said:

There's been a number of scholars and Bible teachers who have changed their view on the timing of the Rapture; I'll use Kent Hovind as an example. All his life he held a pre-trib view, until his imprisonment. He switched his view that the Rapture occurs at the sixth seal judgement, of which I don't agree with his reasoning. 

I don't agree with that either. The 6th seal is Jesus return and the desperate fear of the nations in the realization wrath has come. The 7th trump is the deliverance of the saints from earth to heavenly safety.

On 5/17/2021 at 4:11 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I think Hovind is one of the most knowledgeable and articulate people in our generation on dinosaurs and creation, and does wonderful work in the service to our Lord. Our divergence on one secondary issue, doesn't put a bad taste in my mouth from not learning and listening to him.

A subject I've studied in detail, is the young earth vs. the old earth theory. If you're familiar with these two knowledgeable people. I'd love to listen to a debate between Kent Hovind and Michael S. Heiser on the aforementioned subject.