Premillennialism

[abcdef]

23 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Then do not explain the point away. Just accept the facts of scripture and amend your thinking, your doctrine, and your posts accordingly. There is no Israel in Rev. 20. 

You have not answered my question,

If those who live and reign with Jesus after the first resurrection are not Israel, then who are they?

 

[abcdef]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

That could be the case but I feel more info is needed to define the true order. Revelation 21 more than suggests the city is on earth before the fire from heaven consumes the iteration of Gog and Magog.

Rev 20, concerns the planet earth Jerusalem that is present now.

Rev 21 & 22, center on the spiritual Jerusalem after all material creation flies away.

We as souls are the new Jerusalem and the bride.

1 Cor 15:24, Jesus delivers the finished kingdom up to the Father after death is destroyed, Rev 20:14-15.

Rev 21:1-2, Shows the souls of people coming down from God after being transformed into the Bride of Jesus. The new form of the living souls is the new Jerusalem. This is a living city. It is described as a city so that we can get a spiritual image of what our relationship with God will be in eternity.

The new Jerusalem is made of living souls.

The new earth is living, it is Jesus.

The new heavens are the living Father.

We are surrounded by God, within God, in the heart of God.

All material things fly away from the throne in Rev 20.  

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I guess the point is: Where are all the those things we should be seeing if we are in the millennium?

Good question.

But what does Rev 20, really say when you study the chapter by itself? Without bringing in other possibly related verses?

Isolate the chapter by itself, determine what it says, and then reflect on related texts.

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By itself, the descriptions of entities and events is really very limited.

The dragon (nation) v 2, the resurrected saints, Magog, Jerusalem, all can be understood. The problem is that many verses from other subjects are applied to this time when they are not applicable, or that the imagery that does apply has been misunderstood as literal instead of symbolic of the new covenant period.

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Lion/Lamb,

The description of the lion/lamb relationship is showing the conversion and gift of the HS love under the new covenant.

It is not going to be that an actual lion sits next to a lamb.

The lion soul, who is converted to the soul of the lamb (Jesus) by the new covenant gift of the HS, still has the same body, but does not even think of eating the lamb because he has changed on the "inside". 

The lion and lamb are just images and not literal.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, abcdef said:

Rev 20, concerns the planet earth Jerusalem that is present now.

Rev 21 & 22, center on the spiritual Jerusalem after all material creation flies away.

We as souls are the new Jerusalem and the bride.

1 Cor 15:24, Jesus delivers the finished kingdom up to the Father after death is destroyed, Rev 20:14-15.

Rev 21:1-2, Shows the souls of people coming down from God after being transformed into the Bride of Jesus. The new form of the living souls is the new Jerusalem. This is a living city. It is described as a city so that we can get a spiritual image of what our relationship with God will be in eternity.

The new Jerusalem is made of living souls.

The new earth is living, it is Jesus.

The new heavens are the living Father.

We are surrounded by God, within God, in the heart of God.

All material things fly away from the throne in Rev 20.  

 

Good question.

But what does Rev 20, really say when you study the chapter by itself? Without bringing in other possibly related verses?

Isolate the chapter by itself, determine what it says, and then reflect on related texts.

----

By itself, the descriptions of entities and events is really very limited.

The dragon (nation) v 2, the resurrected saints, Magog, Jerusalem, all can be understood. The problem is that many verses from other subjects are applied to this time when they are not applicable, or that the imagery that does apply has been misunderstood as literal instead of symbolic of the new covenant period.

-----

Lion/Lamb,

The description of the lion/lamb relationship is showing the conversion and gift of the HS love under the new covenant.

It is not going to be that an actual lion sits next to a lamb.

The lion soul, who is converted to the soul of the lamb (Jesus) by the new covenant gift of the HS, still has the same body, but does not even think of eating the lamb because he has changed on the "inside". 

The lion and lamb are just images and not literal.

You are welcome to your view but I do not share it. If it's all spiritual what does it really mean? How does it affect our lives today and for eternity? How do the promises manifest in a real way? How do we know the prophecies have been fulfilled?

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

How does it affect our lives today and for eternity?

We have been told. We should quit talking of past events and see to the Kingdom. We have the tools if we care to use them.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

He is not here on earth physically in bodily form or appearance. That does not mean he is not ruling right now in indisputable fashion. To suggest that Jesus must be here physically in order to rule is a false dichotomy. He can rule and not be here physically. I have already posted explanations how and why this is the case AND I have posted scripture (such as Ps. 110) clearly stating he rules from heaven and will remain there until his enemies are defeated. 

I winder how and why that is not understood, how and why it is not believed, and how and why it isn't trusted. 

Psalm 110:1-7  
"The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."  The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies."  Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew.  The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."  The Lord is at Your right hand; He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.  He will judge among the nations, He will fill them with corpses, He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.  He will drink from the brook by the wayside; Therefore He will lift up His head." 

Matthew 22:41-46
"Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question:  "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They *said to Him, "The son of David."  He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I put your enemies beneath your feet'? If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"  No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question." 

Matthew 26:59-66
"Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death.  They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward,  and said, 'This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'  The high priest stood up and said to Him, 'Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?  But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, 'I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.'  Jesus said to him, 'You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.' Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;  what do you think?" They answered, 'He deserves death!'"

Acts 2:29-36 ESV
“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.  Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,  he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.  This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.  Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,  until I make your enemies your footstool,’  Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Ephesians 1:15-23
"For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,  do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers;  that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.  I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,  and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might  which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,  far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.  And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,  which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." 

Colossians 3:1-2
"Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.  Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth."

Hebrews 8:1-6
"Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,  a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.  For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.  Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;  who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, 'See,' He says, 'That you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.' But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises."

Hebrews 10:12-13
"But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,  waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet."

 

That is just a sample of what scripture has to say about his being seated at the right hand as the right hand NOW and ruling ALL both as King and High Priest. I have just posted how the apostles inspired by God treated Psalm 110. I have not added any personal nor doctrinal interpretation, nor any embellishment of any kind. It is all plain scripture, read exactly as written. The texts are very clear: Jesus is NOW enthroned and he will remain thusly enthroned until his enemies are defeated! 

No earthly reign where his physical body stays here for a literal 1000 years. 

Excellent treatment and I wholeheartedly concur. A couple points:

• The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies.
• Jesus said to him, 'You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.' 
• These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might  which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,  far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. "

These points must be considered as part of the conclusion. The fullness of the reign of Jesus is not yet in it's complete form as attested by the above. 

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years"

The location of the above can be disputed I suppose but we have to deal with a literal 1000 years of 'they lived and reigned with Christ'. This is set apart from eternity and is clearly not allegory, to wit:

"chilioi, a thousand"

"etos, a year"

From the lexicon: "chilia ete"

In a Greek translator, chilia ete equals "a thousand years"

No context suggests figurative interpretation. The time of 1000 years is descriptive of a reign and the actors involved. We are not seeing the context, suggestion, implication or analogy to completeness or inclusivity. It's a millennial reign of powerful justice in contrast to the esoteric 'long time' world view and the ephemeral nature of a spiritual interpretation. 

 

[Selah7]

12 hours ago, Josheb said:

In addition, the word "Israel" is mentioned only three times in the entire book of Revelation (2:14, 7:4, and 21:12), and not a single one of those three mentions has anything to do with the millennial reign! In point of fact, there's no mention of Jerusalem in Revelation 20, either.

By the time we get to the 20th chapter of Revelation, the 7th Trump has sounded and Jesus Christ has returned, bringing with Him His army of saints. All flesh has been "changed" in the twinkling of an eye and everyone is in their spiritual bodies.  We are now into the first day of the Millennium and John is telling us the things concerning the fate of Satan.

Revelation 20

Satan Bound 1,000 Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received hismark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

[Diaste]

Then I saw the THRONES, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

[abcdef]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, I did not answer the question. I did not answer the question because it is an attempt to shift the conversation away from the fact of scripture: Israel is NOT  mentioned in Revelation 20. 

You don't identify them because ?

You say that they are not Israel, but, you cannot identify them yourself.

If you cannot identify them, then you cannot exclude the possibility that the souls from the first resurrection are Israel.

--

If I said, "the natural branches", you might say that the natural branches mean Israel without using the specific word "Israel".

The identity of those who are from the first resurrection is determined from the definition of what the first resurrection is, which is Jesus in 33 AD., confirmed by Paul in 1 Cor 15:23-24.

Those who took place in the the first resurrection are the souls of Israel who lived before 33 AD, and some gentiles who lived before Jacob/Israel, such as Adam, Seth, and Noah.

They are reigning over the kingdom from heaven with Jesus right now, placing us in the millennium at this present time. 

 

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

In fact, nothing in the book of Revelation is addressed to Israel; it is addressed entirely to Christians, those who are Christ's bond-servants.

Everything in the book of Revelation is written to Israel.

--

Christians are Israel, both Jew and gentile.

You can't be a Christian, without being Israel, they are the same.

 

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

In addition, the word "Israel" is mentioned only three times in the entire book of Revelation (2:14, 7:4, and 21:12), and not a single one of those three mentions has anything to do with the millennial reign!

The 144000 are Israel as stated, and the multitude that no man can count, are all from the first resurrection and seen in heaven with Jesus and John at the giving of the Revelation.

The are the souls from the first resurrection with Jesus. They are reigning with Jesus now from heaven by their recorded words in the Bible.

 

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

In point of fact, there's no mention of Jerusalem in Revelation 20, either.

"beloved city"

 

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

And the only mention of "throne" or "thrones" in the chapter occur after the 1000 years have ended! 

The millennium period is between the day of Pentecost when the kingdom began and the second resurrection when Jesus comes for the kingdom, 1 Cor 15:23-24.

The time of Satan being pushed out of heaven happened on Pentecost. In the form of the dragon v 2, the Roman Caesar nation Rev 12:4-5, Rome could not destroy Israel while she was in the gentile nations.

So the time lines both begin at the day of Pentecost and end at the second resurrection on parallel time lines that are not consecutive.

 

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Has the chapter ever been read for what it states in and of itself? 

yes.

 

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

So, once the facts of the chapter have been acknowledged we can discuss the identity of those reigning with Christ but it shouldn't be much of a discussion because scripture is quite clear as to the identity of those who reign with Christ. 

Revelation 5:6-10
"And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.  And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him who sat on the throne.  When he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.  And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are you to take the book and to break its seals; for you were slain, and purchased for God with your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." 

2 Timothy 2:8-13
"Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,  for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.  For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.  It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;  If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;  If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 

It is not Israel. 

None of the souls from the first resurrection were "Christians", that is, in the new covenant gospel kingdom of Israel that began on the day of Pentecost.

New covenant Pentecost kingdom Christians are resurrected at the second resurrection when Jesus comes for the kingdom. 1 Cor 15:23-24.

 

[Justin Adams]

The pre-mil position keeps spreading the wrong gospel. They keep saying haSatan and the other powers are in charge and they also keep saying (and hiding behind) the false premise that the book of Revelation is all future.

Talk about Christians shooting themselves in the foot. Yeshua is REIGNING NOW.

Then they cite evil in the world - well no wonder, the believers are doing so very little about it and let it prevail. Self fulfilling prophesy!!

Pre-mil is a pernicious and false gospel.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

The entire chapter, the larger narrative, and the entire book of Revelation is rife with figurative language. There is, therefore, and in fact plenty of text AND context suggesting figurative interpretation. 

This is true. But the symbols that do exist are specific and do not carry over to other aspects across the entire text. 

Rev 12 doesn't affect Rev 20. And there is no language in Rev 20 akin to what we see in Rev 12:1-4. It starts out, "And a great sign appeared in heaven" so that's our clue to see this as representative. But it's representative of tangible people and events. Jesus is the child and was taken up to heaven, which taking up to heaven is recorded in Acts. 

So this is like conceptual representations; there are real ideas, people and events being related to us in the text.  It's not allegory where the abstract takes the form of word pictures, it's going to be real.

Rev 20 doesn't contain words like "And a great sign appeared" to lead us. It's not like the Dan 2 statue. In both cases there are real world time/space fulfillments and associations in these representations. 

And even then figurative is not the opposite of literal. Figurative language is like the highlighter of speech. It draws attention and enhances the experience for the listener even to the point of a quicker understanding through simile and metaphor.