Just War?

[OneAccord]

I think it is IMPERATIVE that Christians take a good, hard look at both sides of the Just War theory. I see much unwillingness to examine 'the other side' of this most important and complex issue. Here is an excerpt from an article that puts out an argument against Just War and Christians aligning themselves with these worldly causes:

Sadly, however, if there ever was such a thing as a "Just War," the war in Iraq certainly wouldn't qualify as such. The sight of the CEOs of America's Fortune 500 companies bent greedily over the map of Iraq, licking their lips and rubbing their hands together as they divvy up the war booty among themselves (a picture that springs easily to mind as one peruses the pages of the Wall Street Journal) does not lend itself easily to the notion that America is engaged in a "Just War."

But more than that, the idea of a "Just War" is pure fiction. It is nothing more than the depraved "invention" of the Medieval Catholic Church. It's a fantasy, a myth, an illusion - AT LEAST INSOFAR AS THE NEW TESTAMENT IS CONCERNED. And though it has been repeated so often and in so many different venues that one hardly questions its veracity anymore, it is, nonetheless, a lie made up out of "thin air." Jesus said,

"... ALL they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." (Matt. 26:52)

[And remember the context in which Jesus spoke these words: The disciples were looking for Jesus to "seize the kingdom" and bring it in by "force of arms," and when it looked to Peter and the other disciples that Jesus was going to be taken captive, Peter cut off the ear of the guard who had seized Christ, thinking that in lifting up the sword in behalf of Christ, he was "doing service for God."]

But Jesus said,

"Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of ANGELS?" (Matt. 26:53)

When one can have angels, what does one need with man?

THE LORD DOES NOT NEED MAN TO

FIGHT HIS BATTLES FOR HIM

What Jesus was essentially saying here in disregarding Peter's feeble effort to defend Him is that He doesn't need man to do His fighting for Him - a rather "common sense" notion concerning "HIM BY WHOM ALL THINGS WERE MADE" (John 1:3) - a notion, however, that doesn't fit in with C. Peter Wagner's or Dr. Gregory A. Boyd's asinine and moronic concept of "WARFARE THEOLOGY."

"Warfare Theology?" Man fighting for God? The creature battling for the Creator? The finite making war for the Infinite? - the very thought of it is moronic, after all, it isn't God who needs to be saved by man, but man who needs to be saved by God. [Again, please see our article, "America verses Europe" for a discussion of this INSANE and extremely ARROGANT doctrine, i.e., "Warfare Theology."]

FIGHTING FOR THE WRONG KINGDOM

Moreover - and this is important - it wasn't just that Christ DIDN'T need Peter's help, BUT IN TAKING UP ARMS FOR CHRIST, PETER FOUND HIMSELF UNWITTINGLY FIGHTING FOR THE WRONG KINGDOM. Jesus said:

"... My kingdom is NOT of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight ... but ... my kingdom (comes) NOT from hence." (John 18:36)

The very real fact of the matter is, the foundation of the Kingdom that Jesus preached is DIAMETRICALLY opposed to the foundation which undergirds the kingdom of this world; for what Kingdom in this world could long survive using Luke 6:27-29 as a "foundational" premise? -

"Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

"And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also." (Luke 6:27-29)

Certainly not any kingdom or nation in this world that I am aware of; and that is most certainly true of the United States. Jesus wasn't kidding around when He said, "... My kingdom is NOT of this world ..." (John 18:36)

HIDING GREED AND AVARICE BEHIND THE

CATHOLIC CONCEPT OF A "JUST WAR"

The fact is, the concept of a "Just War" to be used by man as a defense for God's purposes in this world is UTTER nonsense. It is nothing more than a corrupt and evil stratagem designed by very vulgar and profoundly worldly Christians who are unable to differentiate between the "Kingdom of this World" and the "Kingdom of God"

The idea of a "Just War" as promulgated by men is nothing more than a mask to give "cover" to the greed, avarice, bloodshed and murder of their "PAYMASTERS" in the political and economic worlds - OR do you really believe that the Thirty Years War (a "religious war" that killed off one-third of the population of Europe), OR the Inquisition (which lifted torture to a "sublime" art form in the "service of God"), OR the "Christian" conquests of India and Africa to "bring the Gospel to these continents" (and concomitantly impoverished the people of India and enslaved half the population of Africa to service the plantations and mines of their "Christian" masters in the so-called "New World), etc. were really "Just Wars" that advanced the Kingdom of God? If so, I have some swampland I would like to sell you in Florida.

And it's the same today with regard to Iraq! - the fact is, the notion that the United States is engaged in a "Just War" in Iraq is nonsense. And it's more than that: it's a lie; it's a "DAMNED LIE!"

But one has to have a willingness as a Christian to see through this "DAMNED LIE;" to - as Archibald MacLeish suggests - "resign from the herd (mentality of most Christians today), and think for himself;" one has to be willing to strip away the thin veneer of altruism and benevolence (i.e., the "Christian-speak" of Bush and his slavish devotees in the Religious Right) that hides the AWFUL TRUTH of what's really happening not just in Iraq, but all over the world.

And what is that? - THAT THE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD ARE BEING RAPED AND PILLAGED for the benefit of a small group of "WORTHIES" that sit atop the "American New World Order System" - a group of "WORTHIES" that the apostate leadership of today's evangelical Christian community has "made common cause with."

No! - greed and avarice are the motivating factors in war, and the repulsive doctrine of a "JUST WAR" is the facade behind which wars are fought. The truth is, the New Testament does NOT endorse the idea of a "JUST WAR." "NOWHERE!" "NO HOW!"

To the contrary, as we have already pointed out, the New Testament says,

"From whence come wars ...? Come they not hence, even of your lusts ...?

"Ye lust, and have not: (therefore) ye kill ..." (James 4:1-2)

A "JUST WAR" IN DEFENSE OF A WORLD THAT

THE BIBLE SAYS "LIETH IN THE EVIL ONE?"

Wars result from our LUST to possess things we can only obtain through violence! That's what the New Testament says! But then, what else should one expect from a war fought in defense of a world the Bible says "... LIETH IN THE EVIL ONE (i.e., the devil)?" (1 John 5:19)

And remember here, that's "... the WHOLE world" (1 John 5:19), not just part of the world, "... the WHOLE world" - or do you really think that these verses (i.e., James 4:1-2 and 1 John 5:19 above) do not apply insofar as America is concerned? - that somehow or other the elites that govern America, people like Ken Lay of Enron, Bernie Ebers of WorldCom (both of whom are crooks), and companies like Boeing, Ford, General Motors, General Electric, etc. (all of which have shipped off thousands and thousands of American jobs to "slave-wage factories" in Mexico and China where laborers there "toil" for pennies a day) are so chaste and "virginal" that these verses are not relevant when applied to them? Do you really think that?

No! - the idea of a "Just War" is a LIE.

THERE IS A "JUST WAR" COMING -

BUT NOT BY THE HAND OF MAN

SOMEDAY, OF COURSE, THERE WILL BE A "JUST WAR" - BUT IT WON'T BE CONDUCTED BY THE "ARM OF THE FLESH," BUT BY THE "ARM OF GOD." And it won't be man that does the fighting, like C. Peter Wagner and Dr. Gregory Boyd postulate in their arrogant and hideous doctrine of "WARFARE THEOLOGY." It will be God Himself when He judges the present "world system of man."

[Lanakila]

So being in the military is totally wrong for Christians, because they may have to fight in a so called just war? How about working at all, OA? This is where this goes, really. We have to occupy till he comes, and that may still be awhile. I happen to occupy in the US and so I will follow the Bible in context and support the government of this country in its job to restrain evil and punish evildoers. Whomever came up with Just War theory doesn't really matter, that is an Ad Hominen argument, which shows the person doesn't really know what they are talking about.

I just will never understand pacificism no matter how hard I try and I am not a war monger. I am a veteran and the wife of a soldier, who is over there so that the Iraqi people can be free. Hopefully free to worship God as they so choose, instead of being isolated from Christianity they will never have a chance to hear the gospel. I believe with all my heart that is war was and is God's will for those people, and although war is literally Hell and people will and did die, our overwhelming force made it possible that very few relatively speaking did die.

I don't think this ever had anything to do with oil and I back the President totally in this war.

[ted]

Hey, One, check out that big part of your Bible in the front called the Old Testiment. It's filled with God's "unjust" wars. Yup, it tells about how God used the evil Jews to invade Canaan, disrupt the local economies, take the land and make new homes on foriegn soil. It also relates how God told the Jews to slaughter all in the land on their way, leaving none alive.

How could you possibly follow God after reading the Old testiment? He even turned His back on His only Son in His most agonizing time of need on the Cross! Pretty mean, isn't He?

Let me jump of my "ridiculous" horse now. If you can't see how God uses people and nations to demonstrate His power and love in His own way, then none of us here can ever do it justice in your eyes, I guess. No one can ever truly understand His way or even comprehend most of it.

But one day we will see His Glory, and that is the Blessed hope of the Church, that, by Jesus shedding His blood on the Cross, we receive forgiveness for our sins. Y'see, God requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sin and Jesus took our place on the Cross.

I don't like war. any war. But we have to keep our eyes on the Blessed hope and understand that God will sometimes use tragedy to demonstate His love and power to us. Says so in that Old Testiment.

Love in truth,

t.

PS- Sorry about the tone on this one, but this subject just hits too close to home for my family.

t.

[OneAccord]

Welcome back, ted!!! I miss our friendly discussions

ted, the questions about the OT God are quite valid questions to ask, and I would reply to that by saying that I hope that the missionaries that evangelize Iraq in the wake of the invasion are prepared to answer those questions to the Iraqis when they ask them.

I personally have my own views as to why God ordered the genocide of the people in the land of Canaan, having something to do with the 'sons of God going in to the daughters of men' and producing giants, an evil race.

But then after the Israelites interbred with them rather than exterminating them, God is operating out of grace, offering salvation to all the gentile nations. I still think war is evil and a result of fallen mankind, and that in heaven there will be no more war, because it does not reflect the beauty of holiness.

Psalm 120:7 I am for peace; but when I speak, they are for war.

ted, I don't doubt your good heart, I just don't agree with the war and I never will.

[eric]

One Accord. I agree with most of what you say. The whole shooting box was and is a fiasco. They still haven't found any WMD or Saddam,the Iraqis dont want the coalition forces there and nobody seems to know who is going to run the show. Every one wants to know what's in it for themselves. And while all the nations are hovering like a bunch of vultures, women and kids are lying in hospital with limbs blown off them, no water, no electricity and no sewage. Oh yeah, it's a just war alright. Huh.

[OneAccord]

Thanks Eric, I often feel pretty outnumbered around here on this issue.

[eric]

Well you might be out numbered my friend, but you certainly aren't on your own. some people just cant see the forest for the trees. Take heart OA if you belong to Jesus you cant lose whatever the outcome. cheers

[ted]

Hi, One, it's good to be back! Only here for two weeks then off to a middle-east nation in support of operation enduring freedom. I've also missed our discussions. I've been looking over some of our old posts and it seems we are on opposite sides of the fence mostly but I can"t seem to shake the feeling that we have common ground somewhere in the middle. Could it be that we are both right and wrong at the same time and we need to both shift to somewhere in the middle?

You're correct in your understanding of God's punishment of the fallen nations, but I think that's not the whole story. I still believe part of it is God's way of demonstrating his power and will to the Jewish people in the sense of "follow Me and I'll show you the way" (my words, not His)

I still don't believe all that our country feeds us. It's been proven time and time again that our leaders will lie to us. But, still, I believe that we need to be protected in the form of a strong military.

The hearts of mankind should not be taken as the final authority, though. I still rest my hope in God's word.

ref.-- Proverbs 3:5-7.

Take care and God Bless. I'll be "boarding" here for another week or so before I leave.

t.

[OneAccord]

ted, I respect very much that you can at least dicuss these hot issues without getting bent out of shape, that you are willing to take a good look at the other side of the fence, and you recognize a fellow searching heart. I certainly don't have all the answers and never will until that day when He reveals all to us that has been hidden. I just see a lot of evil in the world, I don't trust the government, and I think war is hell. We don't want war in heaven when we get there do we? ...... on earth as it is in heaven.

[boblandis]

One Accord, I agree and disagree with what you have been saying. I agree with not trusting the government. They let us all down at the drop of a hat. I don't believe any war is just. In war everybody loses, but there are gains also. The Iraqi people are now fre from enduring hideous cruelty from an insane dictator and have a chance to rebuild their lives.

As I said there are no just wars. I do believe ther are just reasons to go to war. Just reasons for us to go to war were to rid the world of terrorists and free an oppressed people. I honestly don't think that was our governments motive at all. Some good was accomplished in Iraq. You could never see that through the rose colored glasses of a country that still has plenty, for the time being anyway. In this war innocent people did get hurt. You have to stop and think about how many now can go to sleep at night with food in their belly, have medicine, proper clothing, and most of all hope. Something they didn't have for decades.