Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Justin Adams]

7 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

So the soles of His feet walk inside of you 

More Darby misinformation is that?

Actually God owns it all and not just the Abrahamic smidgin...

As sons and daughters of God we have the Inheritance of Abram and of the Lord Yeshua. The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

He said only the Father knows.  Not the Son nor angels. I will go by what He said. It is the Father who draws believers to His Son.

In Christ 

 Montana Marv 

He said that as a man.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Possibly. But we don't.

No, we don't.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, we don't. First, Jesus is using hyperbole; it's a common literary device used throughout scripture.

Oh, I think He was being literal. 

 

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

Second, what Jesus actually said was in reference to all that they could see. The wailing wall cannot be seen from the entrance to the temple. If you, The Light, are going to be literal then actually be literal. 

In case you haven't been around. There are lots of things still standing besides that wall.

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

And then realize all those teachers who use the wailing wall's existence as refutation have done so by ignoring the specifics of the text. 

That is a problem. 

Oh. Errrr. Ahhh. Hmmm. I am unaware of the these teachers. It's good to know that there are others that understand the truth.

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Don't follow folks who make up things that have no bearing on what is actually stated in the text! Be as critical of their words as you are of mine. The irrefutable fact is the temple was destroyed. Just as irrefutable is the fact there isn't a single statement anywhere in the entirety of the Bible stating a third temple will be built. Every prophecy made to say such a things occurs either while an existing temple stood, before Herod's temple was built, or can be understood as the temple God built in Christ (1 Cor. 3:16). 

Houston doesn't have a problem.

I blaze my own trail. If it puts me at the same destination as others that can be a good thing.

Let's just read the Word.

Luke 21

⁷ And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

 

So, when Jesus answered. When did the sign that he gave occur???????????????????????????????????????????????

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Rick_Parker said:

He said that as a man.

He also is the incarnet Word. In the  beginning was the Word.

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[Waggles]

[The Light]

28 minutes ago, Josheb said:

If that is true then neither the wailing wall

s existence or that website can be used in refutation because what he literally said was very specific and it does not, would not, and cannot include the wailing wall. 

Change the way you think and you will change the way you act. 

Stop think the way people tell you to think about the scriptures and read the texts as written thinking first about what they actually state. Only after doing that can we consider what the things stated can be reasonably, rationally, exegetically made to say.

Like I told you, I'm a trailblazer, not a follower, and the only one that is trying to tell me how to read scripture is you. That means I'm taking your advise and not thinking the way you are telling me to think.

In the meantime, why not answer the question that I asked, which is, "When did the sign of His coming happen? And when did the wrath of God occur?"

28 minutes ago, Josheb said:

 

If Jesus was being literal and we are to read the text literally and not embellish or otherwise add to what is literally stated then the wailing wall is a red herring. 

Either way - whether literal or hyperbolic - the text does not in any way preclude 70 AD. Only if we make extra-biblical assumptions can we ignore the facts of the text and the facts of history. 

I see no history as to when the sign of His coming occurred. I don't know of any historical wrath of God from the time of Jesus till today.

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

That is not an answer to the question asked. 

The fact the question asked was not answered proves this was not taken seriously. 

 

Fix those two problems and I will respond accordingly. 

I gave you my answers.  If you don't like them, that's something you have to work with as a discussion forum is an open forum where people answer as they wish, not in how others want them to answer in such a controlling manner, trying to control them.

Lighten up and accept that people are different than you and respond in different ways. 

[The Light]

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Hmmm.... just in case my other posts in this thread haven't been read here are some facts of history relevant to this conversation: 

 

For the first eighteen centuries no one in Christendom thought in the ways being asserted by modern futurism. Ever. The Dispensational-style eschatologies arose during the early- to mid-1800s. Most of what is being asserted in this thread was invented by a guy named John Darby. Look it up. 

Look it up. 

Don't start with the John Nelson Darby yada, yada, yada. Already researched it, so I know that you haven't researched it. If you did research it, you would come to a different conclusion. Seems that you are the one that is regurgitating a bunch of nonsense passed on by others. Do your research and think for yourself. Quit being follower and find the right answers.

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

There was no Israel after 70 AD. ALL of Christendom understood that as a fact and nothing in any mainstream doctrine considered Israel relevant or salient. Nothing. Look it up. All of mainstream and orthodox Christian thought, Christian doctrine, and Christian practice held views much, much different than what is asserted nowadays in modern futurism. The Historicists, Amils, Postmils, and Idealists ALL agreed: Israel is irrelevant. Look it up. The Historicists, Amils, etc. here in this thread will testify to this fact. 

Look it up? Look around. Did God keep His promise and restore Israel as a nation. Look around.

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

In other words, everything about modern futurism is new and radically different than everything Christianity has long held true. What this means if we take it to its logically necessary conclusions is that if modern futurism is true the twenty centuries of long-held, well-established Christian thought, doctrine and practice is wrong. 

It is good to know there are teachers who teach truth, and it is good to know there are teachers who do not teach the truth. If we know the truth then we are better able to recognize avoid falsehood. Learning our own history is helpful and important. 

Read the word and then look around. Nuff said. Do you see the nation of Israel. Yes because God keeps His word.

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

And, brother, you're not unaware of them. You just linked everyone in the forum to a Google search that included some of those teachers. Can't have it both ways: if you don't know what these websites say eschatologically then you have no business citing them as evidence against Matthew 24:2. Don't take this lightly because I will affirm that which bears consistency with God's word and refute that which does not. We're not discussing archeology. We're discussing eschatology. If the meaning of the archeology is not correctly understood eschatologically then either don't post it or ask. 

Maybe someone will open their eyes and see one stone upon another that has not been cast down. Maybe they will realize that the events of 70AD have nothing to do with the time of the end.

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

"Houston, we have a problem," turns out to be foolishness if the wailing wall's existence is not correctly understood eschatologically. It does not in any way, shape, or form refute Matthew 24:2 unless we force it to do so by ignoring what is stated and assuming things not stated. 

When you can come up with evidence that Jesus has returned and the end time wrath of God has occurred, I'm willing to listen.

 

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I hope we can agree on two things: 

1. Scripture is authoritative over all, 
    
2. The best case that any of us could possible make is a polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent and coherent topical case of well-rendered scripture.

Yes? 

Number one for sure. I not sure I can comprehend the pliability of the enumerable terms and their cohesiveness regarding said topical case.

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

 

 

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

If either of those things are true then you cannot also ignore the specifics of the text (or the facts of history. The two are contradictory. 

 

Fix that problem and I will then respond accordingly. 

Wow, you really don't accept that other have a different theology than you do.   There is absolutely no contradiction in the two answers I gave. 

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

If the studying and the homework were done then you know the kind of futurism being asserted did not exist prior to the early to mid-1800s. That is a fact of Christian history. There was no Israel after 70 AD and not mainstream or orthodox Christian doctrine ever asserted Israel would be reconstituted. None. Ever. ALL of Christian doctrine, whether t be Christology, soteriology, pneumatology, hamartiology, ecclesiology, or eschatology ever held to this belief. 

It was invented in the 1800s. 

In other words, when you open your Bible and begin reading you do so with a set of doctrines that were invented 18 centuries after the Bible was written AND a set of doctrines no one in Christendom ever held before. 

If what you believe is true then 20 centuries of mainstream orthodox Christian thought, doctrine, and practice is wrong. That is the logically necessary conclusion of the futurist eschatology. No one - not the Historicists, not the Amils, not the Postmils, and not the Idealists - no one ever believed Israel was eschatologically relevant or salient. No one. That remains true to this day. 

If the studies were done then you know what I just wrote is true. 

If that isn't known the the studies were not done adequately or completely. Doubt me? Then look it up. Prior to the early- mid-1800s the Dispensational-style futurisms were unheard of. 

 

So when I am asked for historical evidence I understand I'm being asked for evidence of your interpretation, not evidence for what scriptures states. There are big differences between the two. Earth quakes and wars happened in the first centuries. Rumors of the same happened, too. False messiahs ran amuck. some of it is mentioned in the scriptures. 

So anyone claiming to have done their studies who claims the historical evidence doesn't support their interpretation has an internal problem because the futurist view being asserted did not exist for 18 centuries. 

Failure to acknowledge that is evidence the studies were not done thoroughly.   Do you always bully your way around?

 

 

Fix that problem and I will respond accordingly.

People thought the earth was flat for so many years, then one day they were shown it was not flat when someone explained it to them.  Just because people believed something for a long time does not mean they were correct.  Just because people did not believe Israel would ever be a nation again does not mean it didn't happen.

You really need to get over yourself.