Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I have a hard time thinking these two men never died...Elijah and Enoch are both listed in Hebrews 11 ... it says 'all these died in faith not having received the promise...the one phrase is in Hebrews 11:32 where it mentions David, Samuel and 'the prophets...'

So Elijah and Enoch would fit within the prophet category...but the thing that is hard to get is that it says 'Enoch was translated that he should not see death...but then later it says 'all these died in faith..' I have looked at Enoch for a long time and I don't have a good explanation and have not heard anyone else with one either...Of course I would like to know, but so far I have put it on the shelf until I can see what its talking about.

Elijah can easily be seen he did not ascend up to heaven and receive a glorified body of course because of what Jesus said that 'no man hath ascended up into heaven..' but also the chronology of when Elijah was taken up can be shown he wrote a letter to Jehoram about 8 years after this event occurred.

Ahaziah dies according to the word of God given by Elijah 2 Kings 1:17...Approximately 8 years later after he was taken up he writes a letter to Jehoram in 2 Chron. 21:12...Jehoram dies 2 years later 2 Chron. 21:19.....

I have a very in depth chart on the chronology of the Bible by Martin Anstey, called the "Romance of Bible Chronology..." absolutely the most detailed study in existence from what I know. 

But from the charts of the kings in power during that time it can be seen the time frame we are talking about. 

It is kind of folklore that these two men never died, seemingly pretty predominate in the pre trib world but another thing it says is 'In Adam all die,' and also the scripture you gave, it is appointed unto men once to die...the only exception that can be pointed to is where Paul said 'we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...'

Right...I know people have said this at times..but these conclusions seem to be built on the premise that they never died, whereas Hebrews 11 shows that the prophets all died in faith...

Blessings to you

"Your claim is false" Hebrews 11 says absolutely nothing about Elijah, and it clearly states Enoch was translated that he should not see death

Hebrews 11:5KJV

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Elijah was taken to heaven and never experienced physical death

2 Kings 2:11KJV

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Edited January 26, 2022 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

"Your claim is false" Hebrews 11 says absolutely nothing about Elijah, and it clearly states Enoch was translated that he should not see death

All I was saying was that it states in Hebrews 11:13 that 'all these died in faith..' thinking that 'all these' would mean 'all these.' Elijah was not mentioned specifically but he was a prophet so he would have been included where it says in Hebrews 11:32 "And what shall I say more? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also and Samuel, and of the prophets:"

So if we are to say Elijah didn't die because he wasn't specifically mentioned by name, then I guess we could also assume  that Isaiah didn't die or Amos, or Obadiah, or Ezekiel or Zechariah. No, they don't have to be specifically mentioned by name because the writer said time would fail if everyone was to be specifically mentioned. 

Elijah is easily shown to still be alive on earth some 8 years after he was taken up into a whirlwind...as it is shown he wrote a letter to Jehoram in 2 Chron. 21:12. 

When it says he was taken up into heaven does not mean he ascended up to the third heaven where God is...there is the heaven where the birds fly, and then there is the heaven where the sun and moon are, then there is the third heaven where God dwells, or also called 'above all heavens' in Eph. 4:10 and others. 

The other thing that has to be considered is what Jesus himself said in John 3:13 '...and no man hath ascended up to heaven..."

So he is not saying Elijah did not go up into heaven, but it is saying no one had ascended up to the heaven where God is. 

The only issue I was bringing up was how to resolve what is said about Enoch...because it does say 'he was translated that he should not see death', but then we have Hebrews then saying that 'all these (including Enoch) died in faith...

If Enoch and Elijah did go up to heaven then why would Jesus say no man has ascended up to heaven? It also states that Jesus is the only one who has immortality...and flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God as Paul said, so if Jesus is the only one who has immortality and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, then there is a problem...if they did receive glorified bodies then Jesus would not have been the only one who has immortality, and if they can't get there in flesh and blood bodies they couldn't have gone there either. 

Its all fine with me whatever conclusion you can come up with, but the conclusion cannot violate other scriptures. 

 

[truth7t7]

15 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

All I was saying was that it states in Hebrews 11:13 that 'all these died in faith..' thinking that 'all these' would mean 'all these.' Elijah was not mentioned specifically but he was a prophet so he would have been included where it says in Hebrews 11:32 "And what shall I say more? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also and Samuel, and of the prophets:"

So if we are to say Elijah didn't die because he wasn't specifically mentioned by name, then I guess we could also assume  that Isaiah didn't die or Amos, or Obadiah, or Ezekiel or Zechariah. No, they don't have to be specifically mentioned by name because the writer said time would fail if everyone was to be specifically mentioned. 

Elijah is easily shown to still be alive on earth some 8 years after he was taken up into a whirlwind...as it is shown he wrote a letter to Jehoram in 2 Chron. 21:12. 

When it says he was taken up into heaven does not mean he ascended up to the third heaven where God is...there is the heaven where the birds fly, and then there is the heaven where the sun and moon are, then there is the third heaven where God dwells, or also called 'above all heavens' in Eph. 4:10 and others. 

The other thing that has to be considered is what Jesus himself said in John 3:13 '...and no man hath ascended up to heaven..."

So he is not saying Elijah did not go up into heaven, but it is saying no one had ascended up to the heaven where God is. 

The only issue I was bringing up was how to resolve what is said about Enoch...because it does say 'he was translated that he should not see death', but then we have Hebrews then saying that 'all these (including Enoch) died in faith...

If Enoch and Elijah did go up to heaven then why would Jesus say no man has ascended up to heaven? It also states that Jesus is the only one who has immortality...and flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God as Paul said, so if Jesus is the only one who has immortality and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, then there is a problem...if they did receive glorified bodies then Jesus would not have been the only one who has immortality, and if they can't get there in flesh and blood bodies they couldn't have gone there either. 

Its all fine with me whatever conclusion you can come up with, but the conclusion cannot violate other scriptures. 

 

Enoch And Elijah Never Experienced Physical Death

Hebrews 11:5KJV

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Elijah was taken to heaven and never experienced physical death

2 Kings 2:11KJV

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

[transmogrified]

On 1/26/2022 at 3:37 AM, truth7t7 said:

Elijah was taken to heaven and never experienced physical death

Hello again-

What do you think Jesus meant when he said 'no man hath ascended up into heaven...?

Jesus said this hundreds of years after Elijah went up into heaven in a whirlwind. Do you believe there are different levels of heaven...such as where the birds fly, and where the sun and the moon are and then the third heaven where God is? 

 

[truth7t7]

20 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hello again-

What do you think Jesus meant when he said 'no man hath ascended up into heaven...?

Jesus said this hundreds of years after Elijah went up into heaven in a whirlwind. Do you believe there are different levels of heaven...such as where the birds fly, and where the sun and the moon are and then the third heaven where God is? 

 

Jeremiah 4:25KJV

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

2 Corinthians 12:2KJV

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Edited February 20, 2022 by truth7t7

[Diaste]

On 2/19/2022 at 8:49 PM, transmogrified said:

Hello again-

What do you think Jesus meant when he said 'no man hath ascended up into heaven...?

Jesus said this hundreds of years after Elijah went up into heaven in a whirlwind. Do you believe there are different levels of heaven...such as where the birds fly, and where the sun and the moon are and then the third heaven where God is? 

 

Interesting. I believe the idea is His ascension. Enoch and Elijah were taken, Jesus ascended. "As you see Him go so will He return." 

 

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Interesting. I believe the idea is His ascension. Enoch and Elijah were taken, Jesus ascended. "As you see Him go so will He return." 

Great topic and that is my view also. The way I view it:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Three times for emphasis is the Greek word mĕtatithēmi; meaning to remove, transport, or transfer someone somewhere. We find the same situation with Philip:

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

The Greek word for caught away here is harpazo, meaning to seize, catch, take, or transport someone somewhere. In this instance, the destination is Azotus.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

If a tornado were to pass over us, we would also be taken up and transported to heaven. The word heaven here is shâmayim, which is not where the Throne of God resides, it is the second heaven, where the birds, planes, and clouds fly.

Both did not see death, but as with Philip, they were relocated to somewhere else, and it could not be the third Heaven where God resides. Jesus' atonement and redemption for our sins were yet future. There is nothing mentioned of Enoch and Elijah receiving glorified bodies or being redeemed.

Enoch and Elijah's destination was the same place as Samuel's and every other Old Testament believer. Paradise, Abraham's bosom; a place prepared by the Lord for those to wait in comfort until Jesus mission to lead captivity captive.

As always, just a personal view.

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Interesting. I believe the idea is His ascension. Enoch and Elijah were taken, Jesus ascended. "As you see Him go so will He return." 

Both the words 'taken' and 'ascended' were used when Jesus went up to heaven in  a cloud from the Mt. Of Olives

'This same Jesus that was 'taken' from you shall so come again in like manner...'

" Do not touch me, for I have not yet 'ascended' unto my Father...

Elijah can be shown to be alive on the earth after he was taken up in a whirlwind. The timeline can be traced that he wrote a letter to Jehoram reproving him of his evil deeds about 8 years after he was taken up, showing he died a natural death like everyone else..

Enoch is the one that is puzzling...we know Jesus said no man hath ascended up to heaven and we also know that no man has immortality except for Jesus but it states Enoch was translated that he should not see death...but then later in Hebrews it says 'All these died in faith not having received the promise...' 

I have heard a number of explanations but they all seem to have problems with them so until God opens it up I don't know what it means. 

Blessings to you

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Great topic and that is my view also. The way I view it:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Three times for emphasis is the Greek word mĕtatithēmi; meaning to remove, transport, or transfer someone somewhere. We find the same situation with Philip:

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

The Greek word for caught away here is harpazo, meaning to seize, catch, take, or transport someone somewhere. In this instance, the destination is Azotus.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

If a tornado were to pass over us, we would also be taken up and transported to heaven. The word heaven here is shâmayim, which is not where the Throne of God resides, it is the second heaven, where the birds, planes, and clouds fly.

Both did not see death, but as with Philip, they were relocated to somewhere else, and it could not be the third Heaven where God resides. Jesus' atonement and redemption for our sins were yet future. There is nothing mentioned of Enoch and Elijah receiving glorified bodies or being redeemed.

Enoch and Elijah's destination was the same place as Samuel's and every other Old Testament believer. Paradise, Abraham's bosom; a place prepared by the Lord for those to wait in comfort until Jesus mission to lead captivity captive.

As always, just a personal view.

I think that's a proper distinction between the heaven Jesus referred to in John 3 and the heavens of the atmosphere. The context of Jesus' answers to Nicodemus is that of the kingdom of God and not the expanse where birds fly. 

So it would be true that no man ascended to where God lives except the one that came from there, and that Enoch and Elijah, while they were also taken were, as you said, transferred and that was involuntary.

In Acts 1 the word for taken referring to Jesus departure is analambano, a personal act of volition. Even an aggressive taking of an offer. So I feel this isn't an harpazo  in Acts 1 but taking an offer. It's voluntary, not involuntary, and unique as Jesus can take it where Elijah and Enoch could not of their own.

I think your view is apt and unforced resolution. 

Blessings.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Elijah can be shown to be alive on the earth after he was taken up in a whirlwind. The timeline can be traced that he wrote a letter to Jehoram reproving him of his evil deeds about 8 years after he was taken up, showing he died a natural death like everyone else..

This is interesting. Could you expand on this and perhaps provide a link to some reading?

Thanks.

Blessing to you as well.