Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

FreeGrace said: 

Yes, of course Jesus is currently in heaven.

He is…no doubt

Yes, that is clearly what I was saying.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

…however...the first question I asked you is…”So that is to say that He is not here on earth now?” I could infer that you are saying “no” to that question in your initial response to me…and there is nothing in your answer to suggest you are saying “yes”….you did not give me a direct answer…simple question…simple answer.

You don't have to infer anything from my response.  You even admitted what I said.

So, I DID give you a straight, simple and direct answer.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

Creation…all that is created…which is the heavens and earth…are contained “within God”…who is Spirit and eternal. Now our Lord Yahshua Christ is…”the visible image of the invisible God”…can you see Him? Additionally…“He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation”…we can probably all agree on that. Being that He is “the first born over all creation”…of course He must have a direct connection to His creation…right?

Being the "first born" refers to receiving a glorified immortal physical body FIRST.  Acts 26:23 Col 3;21.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

It has been written…in Colossians 1...“ He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [speaking of Christ Yahshua] For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” This is the Lord Yahshua Christ we are talking about here. 

We can read in Psalms 139 how king David expressed the location of the Lord…he was convinced that neither in heaven nor hell could he escape the presence…Spirit of the Lord & Creator… 

So He…”is alive and here…in the created  earth and in heaven”…right now…in this way…surely you knew that FreeGrace?

Of course the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all omnipresent.  So, what is your point?

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

I will further deconstruct what you posted to me...and reveal an awesome Truth to "whosoever will" take the time to read it...in the next post to you.

Tatwo...:)

Always open to awesome truth.

[Montana Marv]

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

And what do you know!  I discovered, really discovered Acts 17:11.  Are you aware of that verse?  I call it the Berean VERIFICATION method of Bible study.  So I strain EVERY posters claims (words) against the Bible.  Do their claims match what the Bible says?  If not, I reject them.

Then you need to also own John 1:1,2,14 and Matt 24:36,37.  I go by this; believe or reject; strategy for the placement of the Harpozo.  And your position does match these qualifications.  They add to Scripture which is not there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ChristB4us]

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Since you have figured this one out correctly; have you also figured where the 1/4 of mankind dies, before this event.  Or where the 1/3 of oceans turn to blood occurs,location, or which 1/3 of streams and waters turn bitter (wormwood), location.  And why all these are happening in this sequence; to attain what?  Acts 1:11b. No one seems to know the significance of some of these events, and where the location is.

In Christ

Montana Marv

You'll have to cite the reference of 1/4 of mankind as dying before that event.

With His help, unless I am overlooking something in His words, but the act of opening the scroll of the events in it as 7 seals need to be opened suggests all of the events shall happen quickly once all the 7 seals have been broken to open that scroll.

The hard part of Revelation is to discern with Him as the events are not written in chronological order since Revelation 18th chapter is the event of Revelation 14:8 when the 2nd angel announces the fall of Babylon as one of the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth after the rapture event in Revelation 14:1-5, followed by the everlasting gospel spread every where by the first angel before the end of the world as we know it ends as tying into Matthew 24:14 and then after the 2nd angel, the 3rd angel warns every one of the consequence of the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive is the lake of fire so no one will have an excuse not knowing the gospel nor the consequence for the mark.

And since Revelation 18th chapter is Revelation 14:8 event, the opposite may also be true in when  1/4 of mankind dies if read before Revelation 8:7, it may more than likely refer to when that third of the earth gets burned up in Revelation 8:7 event.

I am still open to learning with Him in His words regarding Revelation and so mayhap He can use us as iron sharpen iron as He minister to both of us.

 

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, bloom said:

So this is where the U.S.A. is mentioned in the bible, I was unaware.

I am led to believe that one of the reference of Babylon in Revelation as sitting on 7 hills is the Vatican but the Babylon of Revelation 18th chapter can only be USA as "we the people." would be liken unto Babylon when building that tower as "let us make a name for ourselves", thus the daughter of Babylon in a way.  USA is the center of trade that when the western hemisphere is burned up, the merchants of the sea will stand afar off.  The Vatican is not the center of trade for that to happen to that "Babylon".

The more "long" note is how the Biblical prophesies will list all the armies of the world as taking part in marching against Jerusalem when putting them altogether, O.T. & N.T., but none of them describes, let alone identifies the nation of USA.

When you have a third of the earth burned up for why the coming New World Order with the mark of the beast system will be forced on everyone, and for all those armies as prophesied to march against Jerusalem, how can a third of the earth gets burned up that serves the catalyst for the coming NWO?  Look at the globe or the world map.  The western hemisphere is one third of the earth.  That means goodbye USA.

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

In your statement…”Paul was clear about that in 2 Cor 5:6,8.  To be "absent from the body" (physically DEAD) is to be "at home with the Lord", and vice versa; to be "in the body" (physically ALIVE) is to be "absent from the Lord".” 

It appears to me…that you seem to be saying…that Paul is creating the distinction as follows…”I am with the Lord if I am “physically dead”…I am not with the Lord if I am “physically alive.” Paul himself an Apostle of the Lord Yahshua…who reportedly penned those words…while “physically ALIVE”…yet was absent from the Lord? I’ll come back to Paul in II Corinthian as may be necessary here.

Paul was simply stating the obvious.  If we are alive in the body, we are NOT in heaven, and if we have physically died, we are in heaven.  Is that a bit more simple?

How about you explaining to me what you think Paul was teaching if you disagree.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

 If Yahshua the Creator…God…Father…Spirit…as we saw in my post above…to you…is not here…but is “remaining in or being contained in heaven”…as it would seem

It doesn't "seem so" as you claim, but Scripture SAYS SO.  Do you disagree with the Bible?

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

…you are suggesting the writer of the book of Acts says, ”FreeGrace”…then…what do you think Paul meant when he said…”do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?” 

Paul taught that all believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

FreeGrace…when a living human who does not have the Holy Spirit…is filled with the “Holy Spirit” it is because they have responded to the Lords call of them…to Himself…and this…while they are yet “alive physically”…how could this ever possibly happen to the “physically dead”…right? If one dies without the Holy Spirit…off to judgment they will be going.

If a peson does "nnot have the Holy Spirit", then they CANNOT be "filled with the Holy Spirit".  Such talk reveals a high level of confusion.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

 So…whenever someone turns to the Lord…Paul says in II Corinthians 3…the veil is taken away…”what veil is that”…it is the veil between creation [natural] and the heaven of God [spiritual]…symbolically in ancient Israel there was a “veil” between the “Holy Place” and the “Holy of Holies”…it was torn in half from top to bottom….at the crucifixion of our Lord as they say. 

What “was” the veil for…its purpose? To keep the people from the prescience of God…yup…there is so much more to this…look it up for yourself if you like…you will land in that area somewhere with your understanding…that is if you don’t already realize it.

The veil is Satan's deception.  You need to read more than just a few verses.

And notice the order in 2 cor 3:14 - But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.  Who "makes their minds dull"?  Satan, who deceives the whole world.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

Paul seems to think that he can be pleasing to the Lord regardless of being “Physically dead” or “physically alive.”

Of course.  I'm struggling to figuere out what point you are trying to make, though.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

FreeGrace you may want to revisit your interpretation of the passages you cited in your response to me.

Please explain why I would want to.  iow, show me my error, if you think I have made any.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

However getting back to Paul…he will go on to write in II Corinthians 3:17…” Now the Lord is the Spirit“…the Lord Yahshua…”is the Spirit…He is the Spirit”…further he says…“and where the Spirit of the Lord is, [Yahshua] there is liberty.” Emphasis mine.

Your point, please?

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

 This “liberty” that comes with the Spirit of the Lord…Yahshua…that Paul speaks of…is the liberation from merely dwelling in the “flesh” alone…to having ones dwelling in the “Spirit…who is the Lord”…which is in heaven…exactly wherever the Lord abides.

First you seem to argue about my statement that Jesus is in heaven, and now you readily acknowledge that He is.  And I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

Paul continues…“we are being transformed into the same image”… it should be clear that Brother Paul understands that as we stand before the Lord of glory…”having the veiled limitation of the flesh removed” that as we do…we are being transformed into His Image and likeness…there is literally no other way to enter the process of transformation in to the likeness of the Lord Yahshua except to be in His very presence…always.

It's not a matter of our being in "His presence", but of our "growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ", per 2 Pet 3:18.  This is what spiritual growth is.

How do you get to "be in His very presence always"?   Can you define that, measure that?  No.  But you CAN measure and define growing in knowledge of the Lord.  That is by learning and applying biblical principles.

For example, can you explain how to obey Eph 5:18?  "be filled with the Spirit".

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

To finish this I will present the following…from II Corinthians 5

Paul speaking…”Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh.” Ok so this was written  somewhere around the mid first century as we are told…so at the very least since Paul wrote it back then…he is saying that we are not to “address…interact or acknowledge” those with the Holy Spirit according to the limitations of being simply “flesh” any longer 

When he says…”according to the flesh”…that is what you call “physically alive”...we are no longer to live on the unregenerate human frequency…we are to connect on the frequency of the Spirit…in the heavens. 

Then Paul uses the situation with the Lord Yahshua to explain his statement…“Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh” [He “was here” in a physical human body at one time] “yet now we know Him thus no longer.” Interesting choice of words I must say…Paul is not saying we no longer “know Him”…he is saying His flesh is gone…He is “physically dead”…we do not “know” Him in a temporal or physical sense because He is gone…but we now “know Him” by His Spirit within us…His temple...”in Christ.”  

Lastly…in vs. 17 he reminds us…”Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” Meaning that…when we move from “physically alive in the flesh…to spiritually alive in the physical flesh”…meaning the life within us is Spirit…we are a “new creation” that lives and has its being “in Christ” who is the Spirit of the living God.

Tatwo...:)

Still no idea what your point is.  But a long sermon, I think.

[ChristB4us]

21 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

It seems you missed what I told you;  I already ask Him daily for the Holy Spirit to illuminate the truth as I read His Word.  Do you do that?

And what do you know!  I discovered, really discovered Acts 17:11.  Are you aware of that verse?  I call it the Berean VERIFICATION method of Bible study.  So I strain EVERY posters claims (words) against the Bible.  Do their claims match what the Bible says?  If not, I reject them.

And I have found NO verse that teaches a pretrib rapture to heaven scenario.  In fact, I have found verses that very clearly state that the singular resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) will occur "when He comes" (also 1 Cor 15:23), which is the Second Advent (2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:4-6).

Since scripture cannot go against scripture, is why you need to check with Him again.  You may have teachings that you believe to be true keeping you from seeing the truth in His words.

Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 17:26-37 & Luke 21:33-36 do not describe the end of the great tribulation for how any saved believer can be ensnared by the cares of this life or get drunk when they need the mark of the beast to buy & sell, let alone working in a field when the beast is waging war on the saints to kill them with the sword & hunger, ( hunger because they do not have the mark of the beast to buy & sell ).

Jesus is warning believer NOW to be ready or else to be ready for the Bridegroom or else be excommunicated from the Marriage Supper held in Heaven; Luke 13:24-30.

[FreeGrace]

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

As for Acts 3:21 that you referenced above…the meaning of “retain, contain” until the restoration of all things is a reference to Him continuing to be an “invisible Spirit” until the time in which He reveals the fullness of who He is to all of creation openly.

Seems you have a rather active imagination.  Actually, the verse is clear enough to understand by just understanding the words.  Jesus will remain physically in heaven until the Second Advent, when He returns to earth and rules over the MK.  Real simple.

16 hours ago, tatwo said:

That is what John said in I John 3 where he wrote…”Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Tatwo...:)

John was also talking about the Second Advent.  Real simple.  Doesn't require a long sermon to explain it.

btw, your posts have not addressed the OP.  Do you believe there will be a pretrib rapture with trip to heaven?

Edited April 11, 2023 by FreeGrace

[bloom]

48 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

North, Central, South Americas; Australia, New Zealand, Greenland.  Their land masses are equivalent to 1/3 of total earths land mass.  We are toast, Biblically speaking.  For those Post-Trib believing individuals, I would suggest moving elsewhere in the years to come.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

26 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

I am led to believe that one of the reference of Babylon in Revelation as sitting on 7 hills is the Vatican but the Babylon of Revelation 18th chapter can only be USA as "we the people." would be liken unto Babylon when building that tower as "let us make a name for ourselves", thus the daughter of Babylon in a way.  USA is the center of trade that when the western hemisphere is burned up, the merchants of the sea will stand afar off.  The Vatican is not the center of trade for that to happen to that "Babylon".

The more "long" note is how the Biblical prophesies will list all the armies of the world as taking part in marching against Jerusalem when putting them altogether, O.T. & N.T., but none of them describes, let alone identifies the nation of USA.

When you have a third of the earth burned up for why the coming New World Order with the mark of the beast system will be forced on everyone, and for all those armies as prophesied to march against Jerusalem, how can a third of the earth gets burned up that serves the catalyst for the coming NWO?  Look at the globe or the world map.  The western hemisphere is one third of the earth.  That means goodbye USA.

No left behinds at all, thats sobering,

[FreeGrace]

46 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Then you need to also own John 1:1,2,14 and Matt 24:36,37.

Why would you think I don't?  Why are you judging me when you have NO facts to back you up?

46 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

  I go by this; believe or reject; strategy for the placement of the Harpozo.  And your position does match these qualifications.  They add to Scripture which is not there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Well, I've shown you where the Bible places the resurrection of all believers.  You are free to believe or reject them.  That's between you and God.

You will need to prove clearly that the verses I've shared cannot mean what I understand them to mean and show how they mean somethiing else.  And then you need to define that "something else".

[FreeGrace]

33 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Since scripture cannot go against scripture, is why you need to check with Him again.

Please show me HOW my understanding of certain verses "goes against" other verses, when NO other verses show a pretrib rapture with trip to heaven.

33 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

  You may have teachings that you believe to be true keeping you from seeing the truth in His words.

Please look in a mirror.  I was brought up believing in a pretrib rapture.  Then I began to study the Word and found no such teaching.  Just a lot of speculation and assumption.

33 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 17:26-37 & Luke 21:33-36 do not describe the end of the great tribulation for how any saved believer can be ensnared by the cares of this life or get drunk when they need the mark of the beast to buy & sell, let alone working in a field when the beast is waging war on the saints to kill them with the sword & hunger, ( hunger because they do not have the mark of the beast to buy & sell ).

Jesus is warning believer NOW to be ready or else to be ready for the Bridegroom or else be excommunicated from the Marriage Supper held in Heaven; Luke 13:24-30.

Speculation in full view.