Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[ChristB4us]

24 minutes ago, The Light said:

So you understand that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth and are raptured and that occurs before the great tribulation. 

I believe you are missing this part. If I planted and crop and told you the first fruits of the crop were pumpkins, you would know that the crop is pumpkins and therefore the harvest would be pumpkins.

Since the 144,000 are first fruits and they are of the 12 tribes, you would know that the harvest in Revelation 14 is of the 12 tribes.

This is what you see with the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which is the gathering from heaven and earth.

You do know that firstfruits is used elsewhere in scripture?

Romans 8:And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 15:20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

So regardless of ho it is that makes up Christ's personal choir in Heaven redeemed from among the living as virgin honest men in these latter days, there will be others of that firstfruits of the resurrection other than His entourage made of 144,000 virgin men.  Where does that leave His disciples that had passed on & the O.T. saints?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[ChristB4us]

23 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

SAME EXACT WORD USED OF Christ's invisible return from heaven, of his invisible advent in the death of believers, by which be takes them to himself into heaven, 

Invisible?  The rapture is neither invisible nor will it be in secret for all shall see Him.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

 

[DeighAnn]

29 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Invisible?  The rapture is neither invisible nor will it be in secret for all shall see Him.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

 

The Invisible coming at DEATH of the 1st body, and the rising up in the 2nd, NOT THE CHANGE OF ALL THE alive and remaining, thats the 'when He can come AT ANY TIME', and has been coming at all the time for the past 2000 years 



I believe in the THE INVISIBLE RETURN OF CHRIST when a saved one DIEs before the 2nd ADVENT because of the verses that speak to how we
Never die
sow a natural body,raise a spiritual body
Follow Him
we know the way 
even so them, every man in his own order
passed from death to life
go prepare a place to be where He is
In Adam all die, In Christ made alivefellow heirs
fellow servants
BORN FROM ABOVE
new creature
no longer of this world
citizenship in heaven
and the way you know
saved from death and destruction  -   led the captivity captive - Firstfruit of them that slept
there are 2 bodies
receive things done in body, works do FOLLOW
partaker of flesh and blood
also partakers of flesh and blood
Pilgrams and sojourners here on earth
return to the Father who gave it
sons of God and stars shouted for joy when earth created






THE 2ND ADVENT VISIBLE TO HEAVEN, EARTH, AND THE DEAD OF THE EARTH 
AKA THE RAPTURE
after the workings of Satan  -
LIKE LIGHTENING
with the armies of Heaven
2nd Advent
heaven opens up  
alive and remain changed - rapture 
EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW
The day of destruction
changes in the sun and moon 





"And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." Mark 12:31 KJV

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Again, there is NO rapture.  Or please please please quote any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

If you can't do that, why would you believe in a rapture?

We as Believers have been Crucified with Christ, Buried with Christ and Resurrected with Christ. Then were are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.  What don't you understand.  Because we have been already Resurrected with Christ, there is no longer any future resurrection for us.  Past tense. It is a Done Deal.  So all Believers who have preceded us in death have already been Resurrection in Christ Jesus; and Those of us still Alive have also been resurrected with Christ Jesus.  The Scripture you need to believe is 1 Thes 4:13-18.  The Dead in Christ will rise first (already Resurrected with Christ); Then those Alive in Christ (also already Resurrected with Christ) will meet them in the air.  Harpozo/Rapture.  So this Harpozo is an ascension, not a resurrection.  Because one cannot resurrect a living person. Change yes, resurrect no.  Only the Dead can be resurrected, Must be in the Grave.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[The Light]

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The purpose of the rapture is not to protect us from wrath. 

The rapture is a harvest and it will protect alive believers as we are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

 

The dead in Christ are raised up on the last day.  That day is described in the text, Rev. 20: 4I

The dead in Christ rise first.

You have the wrong last day. 

The Church will be raptured when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, before the seals are opened. The second harvest will occur at the end of the tribulation which occurs at the sixth seal. Then there is the Judgement of the dead after the trumpets and of course at the end of the 1000 years

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

 

  The last day is at the end of the thousand years and that is the last day.  After this day there are no other days on this earth.  That is the time of the elements melt with fervent heat.

There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The first resurrection is limited to those described for the stated purpose.  They are raised to reign on the earth, they do not go up anywhere yet.

Here is a rapture that takes place at the 6th seal. What do you do with it?

Rev 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Because of the warning contained in the revelation, it is not a good idea to add resurrections and raptures wherever you think it fits.

Or it might be better to understand Revelation so know where the resurrections and raptures are. Heed this warning.

2 Tim 2

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

You do know that firstfruits is used elsewhere in scripture?

 

Not my first rodeo brother.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God's plan was for the fathers of the Jews to be the firstfruits of the first harvest, but they served other gods so the Gentiles become the first harvest. The fig tree has two harvests.

Whatever the first fruits are the harvest is the same. Christ is the firstfruits of those that sleep so the harvest is those that sleep, the dead in Christ.

[The Light]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What makes you think this passage shows Jesus coming for believers, much less taking them back to heaven?  Rev 14 is a "look ahead" vision of John.  Not a rapture.

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBUALTION and before the wrath of God.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Please fully explain 1 Cor 15:23 then.  Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified immortal body, followed by "those who belong to Him" which will be "when He comes".

So, explain how "those who belong to him" CANNOT include every saved person in human history, and explain how "when He comes" CANNOT be the second advent.

Jesus comes first for the dead in Christ. Are the righteous that died before Christ, dead in Christ? I think not.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, you haven't.  So please share the verses that make this clear.  Thanks.

I have clearly explained how the tribulation is OVER before the wrath of God begins. You just read right over it like it's not there. You read without understanding.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet of wrath is blown.

 

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

I showed from Scripture that God's wrath is toward sin.  And believers sin.  Col 3:1-10

So you just ignore the warning in Col 3:1-10?  You simply misunderstand what "not appointed us to wrath" means.

Col 3:1-10 has absolutely nothing to do with the wrath of God. Completely out of context.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, it tells me that you have no evidence for a pretrib rapture/trip to heaven.

You expect verses to tell you exactly when the pretrib happens when we are told He will come in an hour that you think not. How can that work?

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

No, your claim is not proof.

There are NO "harvests" associated with resurrecrtion.  1 Cor 15:23 uses "firstfruits" to mean FIRST to receive a glorified body.

Christ is first fruits of those that sleep. The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest. There are lots of firstfruits. When they are acceptable there will be a harvest.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Do you actually listen to the words here?  There is no harvest/rapture.  But there is a whole lot of blood and "wrath of God".

Jesus is in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect to the clouds. They will be going to the fathers house. Those that remain are cast into the wrath of God. Those in the nation of Israel that flee to the protected place will remain on earth, protected.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Your entire view of things.  That's what.  In v.1 we see the Second Advent, followed by the "gathering" which is the same as 1 Thess 4.  Refutes your view totally.

1 Thes 4 happens at the trump of God or voice of God and is the rapture of the Church. The gathering from heaven and earth is in 1 Cor 15 and happens at the last trump. Then the wrath of God begins.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Well, let's just look at that 6th seal and see what it SAYS.  Rev 6

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 

13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 

14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 

16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 

17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

I see nothing here about what you keep claiming.

In fact, the "4 horsemen of the apocalypse" is the beginning of the wrath.  Obviously.

 

You are without understanding. The 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse, the first 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The Great Tribulation happens in the 5th seal. Jesus comes at the 6th seal. You can overlay the 6 seals with Matthew 24. THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.

Revelation 6

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is the same thing that happens in Rev 14. Wrath begins after the coming of Jesus.

Rev 14

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[bloom]

23 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

I am led to believe that one of the reference of Babylon in Revelation as sitting on 7 hills is the Vatican but the Babylon of Revelation 18th chapter can only be USA as "we the people." would be liken unto Babylon when building that tower as "let us make a name for ourselves", thus the daughter of Babylon in a way.  USA is the center of trade that when the western hemisphere is burned up, the merchants of the sea will stand afar off.  The Vatican is not the center of trade for that to happen to that "Babylon".

The more "long" note is how the Biblical prophesies will list all the armies of the world as taking part in marching against Jerusalem when putting them altogether, O.T. & N.T., but none of them describes, let alone identifies the nation of USA.

When you have a third of the earth burned up for why the coming New World Order with the mark of the beast system will be forced on everyone, and for all those armies as prophesied to march against Jerusalem, how can a third of the earth gets burned up that serves the catalyst for the coming NWO?  Look at the globe or the world map.  The western hemisphere is one third of the earth.  That means goodbye USA.

Nuclear war will be nasty.

[bloom]

On 4/10/2023 at 7:43 AM, Montana Marv said:

Mansion under construction, too noisy.  We are still on this earth.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I wonder what phase of construction the master Carpenter is at right now.

[ChristB4us]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The Invisible coming at DEATH of the 1st body, and the rising up in the 2nd, NOT THE CHANGE OF ALL THE alive and remaining, thats the 'when He can come AT ANY TIME', and has been coming at all the time for the past 2000 years 

I believe in the THE INVISIBLE RETURN OF CHRIST when a saved one DIEs before the 2nd ADVENT nt greater than these." Mark 12:31 KJV

When in according to our faith in Jesus Christ that He is in us 2 Corinthians 13:5 & with us always Matthew 28:20, then there is no Invisible coming of Christ when we die. 

2 Corinthians 5:7-11 testifies that although we are absent from the Lord that has ascended to Heaven physically, when we die, our spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven where He is now.  That is the immediate result of Him being in us and with us always.

When Jesus Christ appear as the Bridegroom, the immediate scenery will be the Marriage Supper table in Heaven.  Matthew 25:1-13

When Jesus Christ comes as the King of kings, the immediate scenery is the battle against the world's armies marching against Jerusalem.  Zechariah 14:15