transmogrified Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: The Bride consists of only N.T. believers. Only those indwelt with the Holy Spirit. All since Pentecost. Who is the bride descending out of heaven that John saw? What was she made of? Only new testament saints since Pentecost...of course not..she is both old and new, just like the multitude of people up in heaven...how do ALL SAINTS come with Jesus if ALL Saints are not up there? They are up there according to scripture, just not according to pre trib... Pre Trib even states the rapture is only for the dead in Christ, however those that die during the tribulation die in the Lord....pre trib is not even true to its own statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, transmogrified said: Who is the bride descending out of heaven that John saw? What was she made of? Only new testament saints since Pentecost...of course not..she is both old and new, just like the multitude of people up in heaven...how do ALL SAINTS come with Jesus if ALL Saints are not up there? They are up there according to scripture, just not according to pre trib... Pre Trib even states the rapture is only for the dead in Christ, however those that die during the tribulation die in the Lord....pre trib is not even true to its own statements. They are not of the Bride, another group of believers. Such as newly converted Mormons, J.W. and the like. They new of Jesus, yet in all the wrong ways. In Christ Montana Marv 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 15 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: They are not of the Bride, another group of believers. Such as newly converted Mormons, J.W. and the like. They new of Jesus, yet in all the wrong ways. In Christ Montana Marv I asked who are the bride which explicitly states they are old and New Testament saints… if they were newly converted JW’s then they would be in the New Testament saint category of the bride, if they were converted but in the wrong way then the wouldn’t be in New Testament category of the bride.. It’s changing the subject to say “they are not of the bride” when I never asked if newly JW’s or Mormons that were converted in a wrong way were of the bride..I was saying the bride according to scripture consists of OT and NT saints.. you say it is from saints from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture… that is NOT how the scripture defines her.. that is how Pre trib defines her.. Like when Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees what did he say? He said “ you say thus, but the scripture says this.. he was comparing exactly what they said with what scripture said … I am doing the same.. I am saying how scripture defines the bride with what you say the bride is and they are obviously not the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 13 minutes ago, transmogrified said: I asked who are the bride which explicitly states they are old and New Testament saints… if they were newly converted JW’s then they would be in the New Testament saint category of the bride, if they were converted but in the wrong way then the wouldn’t be in New Testament category of the bride.. It’s changing the subject to say “they are not of the bride” when I never asked if newly JW’s or Mormons that were converted in a wrong way were of the bride..I was saying the bride according to scripture consists of OT and NT saints.. you say it is from saints from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture… that is NOT how the scripture defines her.. that is how Pre trib defines her.. Like when Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees what did he say? He said “ you say thus, but the scripture says this.. he was comparing exactly what they said with what scripture said … I am doing the same.. I am saying how scripture defines the bride with what you say the bride is and they are obviously not the same Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Andrew and others were all under the O.T. paradym of the Jewish law. They were told to wait in Jerusalem until the baptism of the H.S. When did they become part of the Bride. Before Pentecost or after Pentecost. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garee Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 222 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/10/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 15 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Andrew and others were all under the O.T. paradym of the Jewish law. They were told to wait in Jerusalem until the baptism of the H.S. When did they become part of the Bride. Before Pentecost or after Pentecost. In Christ Montana Marv Dispensations??? A thousands years are "as if" one year (metaphor) a unknown .Gods finished work work in time periods is not by determined by time periods but the labor of love . The Amil signified understanding works the best. The bride as to its first member as a apostles messenger sent with the gospel is Abel the second born to signified our second birth. His blood like the blood of all saints cries out . The wife of Christ the church did not first take form at the time of reformation it restored the order of the bride The idea that God exercises a labor of love or work of his faith differently from one occasion to another . I dont think is a biblical principle but is a oral tradition of men making God's tradition without effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 28 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Andrew and others were all under the O.T. paradym of the Jewish law. They were told to wait in Jerusalem until the baptism of the H.S. When did they become part of the Bride. Before Pentecost or after Pentecost. In Christ Montana Marv It wouldn’t matter because all it saints and New Testament saints is what the bride consists of.. The OT saints were in it before we were.. we were grafted in later as Paul said Israel was the NATURAL branches and the vine is not Israel tge vine is Jesus as he said - I am the true vine and you are the branches.. this is how Israel would included in the dead in Christ seen they were in Jesus before we were and now we are grafted into the SAME olive tree which is Jesus.. it’s apparent that when they get converted what happens ? They are grafted in AGAIN but to what? The same olive tree they were cut of from because of unbelief.. They had to be in Christ before they could be cut off..God pours out the spirit upon them and there is a great mourning and he gives them repentance.. repentance for what? Rejecting the chief corner stone.. It explicitly states we become partners or heirs WITH THEM ( true believers in the OT of the same fatness of the olive tree.. We are one body as Paul said and FELLOWHEIRS with - the distinction is two branches not two two trees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,457 Content Per Day: 8.12 Reputation: 616 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 3 hours ago, transmogrified said: ignoring the obvious conclusion of the flaws of pre trib does not make it go away... The most obvious flaw is that there are no verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,457 Content Per Day: 8.12 Reputation: 616 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 3 hours ago, Montana Marv said: Post trib position is a farce. All it takes to prove a pre-trib position is to have a verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Rather, the Bible states in NO uncertain terms: 1. There is only one resurrection for the saved. Dan 12:2, Jn 5:24, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23 2. That singular resurrection will be at the second advent. 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:4 3. Heb 9:28 states that Jesus will come "a second time". That's the second advent and every mention of Jesus "coming" in the NT refers to the second advent. so now read 1 Thess and 2 Thess with that in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, FreeGrace said: The most obvious flaw is that there are no verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. The fatal error is when it says “ those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him” At this point they think the direction is UPWARDS instead of HIM BRINGING THE DEAD IN CHRIST DOWN with HIM.. .. This then leads to next faulty conclusion that Jesus reversed directions and Goes up when the scripture is always saying he is COMING - Never GOING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 5, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, transmogrified said: It wouldn’t matter because all it saints and New Testament saints is what the bride consists of.. The OT saints were in it before we were.. we were grafted in later as Paul said Israel was the NATURAL branches and the vine is not Israel tge vine is Jesus as he said - I am the true vine and you are the branches.. this is how Israel would included in the dead in Christ seen they were in Jesus before we were and now we are grafted into the SAME olive tree which is Jesus.. it’s apparent that when they get converted what happens ? They are grafted in AGAIN but to what? The same olive tree they were cut of from because of unbelief.. They had to be in Christ before they could be cut off..God pours out the spirit upon them and there is a great mourning and he gives them repentance.. repentance for what? Rejecting the chief corner stone.. It explicitly states we become partners or heirs WITH THEM ( true believers in the OT of the same fatness of the olive tree.. We are one body as Paul said and FELLOWHEIRS with - the distinction is two branches not two two trees Then there was no need for them to receive the Holy Spirit. They were already there. Doesn't work your way In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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