Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Those in Heaven don't need to come get their body,they already have them.

As Paul states we have two bodies,the spirit lives inside the flesh,and when the flesh dies it steps out.

Sorry my friend, but humans are three part beings just as God is, since we are made in his image. Our spirit man was created to be IN A BODY.  When the spirit (with the soul) leaves a body that has died, it is then bodyless so to speak. Did you not read?

Matthew 27...the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

⁵² And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

⁵³ And came out of the graves after his resurrection,

YOur theory does not fit what is written. God will bring the dead bodies back together and bring them up from the ground: "resurrect" them. And the spirit and soul God brings with Him will then join with their body.

I guess you already know, Jesus got HIS body back. It had nails holes in it.

Edited March 8, 2017 by iamlamad

[n2thelight]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry my friend, but humans are three part beings just as God is, since we are made in his image. Our spirit man was created to be IN A BODY.  When the spirit (with the soul) leaves a body that has died, it is then bodyless so to speak. Did you not read?

Matthew 27...the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

⁵² And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

⁵³ And came out of the graves after his resurrection,

YOur theory does not fit what is written. God will bring the dead bodies back together and bring them up from the ground: "resurrect" them. And the spirit and soul God brings with Him will then join with their body.

I guess you already know, Jesus got HIS body back. It had nails holes in it.

Will just put it this way

What kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman.

Point being we had a body before we were made flesh,which is the same one we step out of .

[iamlamad]

37 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

Will just put it this way

What kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman.

Point being we had a body before we were made flesh,which is the same one we step out of .

Christ Jesus put on a human body - forever. He died. If any being in the universe could do with a spiritual body, it would be Him. But He came back to His physical body and resurrected it.

And that is exactly what will happen with every born again believer who has died,  that will be a part of the resurrection/rapture.

[n2thelight]

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Christ Jesus put on a human body - forever. He died. If any being in the universe could do with a spiritual body, it would be Him. But He came back to His physical body and resurrected it.

And that is exactly what will happen with every born again believer who has died,  that will be a part of the resurrection/rapture.

We were never meant to be made flesh

We were with the Father before being born of flesh

Had satan never rebelled we never would have been made flesh

We shall return to how we were before being made flesh,ie,born of woman.

What kind of bodies do the angels have right now?

Christ was transfigured before returning back to Heaven.

The change at the last trump spoken of by Paul is us going from flesh to spirit,those who have already died have made that change,those who are alive at the coming of Christ will be changed to like those that Christ brings with Him

Those who come back with Christ aint coming back to pick up no flesh,the flesh is nothing but dust,and to dust it shall return...

 

 

[Dave from oz]

Either way God is righteous and it'll all come about by his decree.

I'm not saying I've by any means become comfortable with the popular, mid or post trib.

Or pre trib. Just my current leaning and thought you wish to look at.

If John MacArthur believes one can find salvation once receiving the mark, then I find that contrary to something plainly stated in scripture.

I reckon it's a no brainer really, sought of like the continued, unsupported claims on sa that the wine was not alcoholic, and you can't partake of small amounts of alcohol, you'd think there'd be better things to consider than the plainly stated.

 

The 2 lots of 144,000 I will probably better place after a little more of what I am considering is expounded.

From The best I can see at this point of my understanding, the redeemed, are the bride, the church.

Those that have come through Christ during the fullness of the gentiles, or the " time of the gentiles" the blood of the lamb is to redeem all that end up in heaven, of course.

From what I can see, the Bible uses the redeemed in the nt to denote the church.

Those in revelation 14, are virgins, the redeemed, and to me sought of sound like those from the church?

The 144,000 in revelation 7 are from the twelve tribes of Israel, no mention of them being virgins.

Granted they both have mention of the fathers seal.

Hypothetically  ( for want of a better word) their introduction in revelation 7 appears to be at the midtrib mark,  after that john says in revelation 7:9 the tribulation saints are introduced.

Having heard the everlasting gospel  And not worshipping, the beast or receiving his mark, they get mention again in revelation 20:4 the trib saints? 

 

  The 144,000 of the tribes of Israel possibly the remnant promised to be remembered by god?

I realize you're probably thinking what is this peanut from oz going on about?

But I'll do my best to explain how I think it all fits at the moment in my noggin.

 

Again I'm not trying to school you, just looking for understanding and have fellowship.

I'm pretty sure you'll have already considered these things.

 

Assuming we were mid to post trib. In our timing of being caught up, or caught away I started trying to get my head around it.

 

3 things struck me .

1. When it's explained in scripture of the day of our being caught up,  it's unannounced, with no definite time references so to speak or pointers on god's timepiece, but many references to the second coming, with I think definitive points in time, specific events that are given references to what will mark the beginning of the trib week the middle of the week and the end of the trib week, ie: the two witnesses of god in Jerusalem and their very specific time allotted, the abomination of desolation, breaking of the peace covenant started at what I believe to be the beginning of the trib week.

In the account given in Thessalonians by Paul, Jesus doesn't appear to set foot on the ground?

 

Maybe my outlook on that one is a play in words?

Yet upon the second coming, god sets his feet firmly on the ground. And how can the saints come with him if we're still on earth?

 

2. What is the purpose of the first half of the seventieth week's purpose?and the last half of the seventieth week, or time of Jacobs trouble.

 

3. Who populates the fallen world of the millennium rule, there must be someone left, unsaved who come against the new Jerusalem, and makes war?

 

A couple of other things I took note of.

Only the levites, Melchizedek and those that came through Christ, during the time of the gentiles are called priests.

Again the redeemed to be appear to be the bride or us.

 

Like I said you've probably heard it all before.

 

In revelation 1:19 John is told to write about the things he's seen things that are, or in the present. Then the things that will take place after this.

OK so allowing for the physical churches at the time. And allowing the 7 letters to be overlaid across church history I believe the first 3 chapters of rev. relate to the churches themselves, the church throughout history and also to individuals on their own.

 

The 7 lampstands are the seven churches.rev1:20. 3 chapters so far from my train of thought, deal with the "now " part John is told to write of, and layering the 7 letters over the church history takes care of the things to come and there after, which is the better a better interpretation, but still nkjv has it as in rev 1:19 

"Write the things which you have seen" he was seeing a vision of the church history in Rev 1-3 then he was seeing " the things which will take place, then revelation 4 onwards turns very Jewish in it's terminology compared to the comparisons of the churches, gentiles etc.

I believe we are then shown the beginning of the 70th week, a time to drive Jacob(Israel) to the truth of the gospel, I see it specific to Israel, and the tribulation saints.

 The lampstands are in heaven chapter 4 onwards.

As are the 24 elders, who identify themselves as the redeemed in rev5:9 " and have redeemed us" they sing, " and have made us kings and priests to our god"

Again only Melchizedek, the levites and the bride are called priests.

 

Now I believe the 7 seals, trumpets and wrath overlap on their stories, sometimes I believe describing the same event.

 

Judges 14 gives an example of a Jewish wedding.

Which I think is important to consider as Jesus calls himself the bridegroom and us the bride.

Would Jesus betroth his bride, then come to retrieve her but give her a severe touch-up just before he takes her to the marriage supper?

 

Jacob is the one that gets a smack up the ear, not me I hope, lol, oh and the trib saints killed for their witness of Christ.

 

Thyatira which if I lay the letters over church history are part of the rcc in her later days just before the reformation, reformation church I believe could apply to sardis perhaps.

 

Philadelphia, the great awakenings in America, China , Africa, India etc.

 

Laodicea is the apostate church of our times, spoken of by Jude epistle.

 

So thyatira is told some may go through great tribulation if they don't repent? So if some are threatened with tribulation, are the others in that church not going through great tribulation?

And were also told no other burden would be put on them, maybe because the rcc  already have them burdened enough?

 

I'd like us to familiarize ourselves with the last 4 verses of Daniel 9 before I try and convey my understanding of details of the trib, as I believe understanding Daniel 9 is paramount to understanding eschatology, prophecy.

 

I find if I try my best to orientate the scripture correctly then the more literal the word speaks to me.

 

Jesus has gone to prepare mansions in the fathers house.

 

Isaiah 26:20.

Come my people, enter your chambers,

And shut your doors behind you; 

Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,

Until the indignation is past.

Nkjv.

 

Ephesians 5:25 we're the bride, set apart , apart from whom? Well the world yes, but also set apart from the chosen nation and people of Sinai covenant, those he promised they'd be his chosen nation, and he intends to keep it with the remnant.

 

Hebrews 10:8-18

Shows Jesus will gather his bride sanctified not by sacrifices of the priests but by the blood of the bridegroom. Likewise 

Hebrews 13:5-17.

Says the same to me.

1Corinthians 1:1-7 conveys this to me as well, purchase price , set apart then gathered.

These all pertain to the bride.

Who I can't see getting dragged through the fire to refine Jacob, as it's supposed to be the time of his trouble.

 

Moses and the Israelites were raptured from Egypt.

Enoch, Melchizedek, Noah and his family, Abraham, Joseph, Joseph Mary and Jesus, are all examples, I believe of god protecting or removing or taken out of his beloved.

 

But not Jacob, Israel no they have a lesson to be taught to them still.

 

Gen 2:24.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Nkjv.

Very important to keep in mind when understanding Christ's relationship to us the bride.

 

I'm sure you're aware that when I use the word rapture I'm getting it from the Greek word harpazo which means to be caught up, caught away or taken up,  so a rapture is inevitable for the bride, the age old question remains, when?

 

 

As a thief in the night he comes for us, in the twinkling of an eye, no warning. But many definitive events and specific time periods regarding the second coming with many indicative phrases for time of his coming to plant his feet.

 

I need to dig further in my notes but somewhere god says he returns to heaven while the indignation takes place, where has he returned from? The marriage supper I think.

 

Hooroo mate, I have so much more I wish to run by you but I'll let you read this and if you don't think I'm nuts then I'll give further detail for my current thought.

God bless

 

[Dave from oz]

Please forgive me, I didn't intend to include in my comment, anything in john mac, I have just learnt to cut and paste,sorry and just now I've learnt to proof read.

Blessings

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, n2thelight said:

We were never meant to be made flesh  

...

Those who come back with Christ aint coming back to pick up no flesh,the flesh is nothing but dust,and to dust it shall return...

 

 

We were never meant to be made flesh   That is a rumor or a theory.

We were with the Father before being born of flesh That to is a rumor or a theory that cannot be proven .

Had satan never rebelled we never would have been made flesh  That to is a theory that cannot be proven.

We shall return to how we were before being made flesh,ie,born of woman. Rumor, theory.

What kind of bodies do the angels have right now? Flesh and bone, but in the realm of the Spirit.

Christ was transfigured before returning back to Heaven. But while transfigured, He still had a human body.

The change at the last trump spoken of by Paul is us going from flesh to spirit,those who have already died have made that change,those who are alive at the coming of Christ will be changed to like those that Christ brings with Him  You are simply wrong in this theory. It is not at all what the bible teaches.

Those who come back with Christ aint coming back to pick up no flesh,the flesh is nothing but dust,and to dust it shall return...   This is ENTIRELY unscriptural. But you will continue to teach this false doctrine.

[Dave from oz]

Angels are spiritual beings that can materialize into flesh and bone.

That's fairly straight forward.

Messengers sent by god from inconceivable dimensions, to a human.

 

[n2thelight]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We were never meant to be made flesh   That is a rumor or a theory.

We were with the Father before being born of flesh That to is a rumor or a theory that cannot be proven .

Had satan never rebelled we never would have been made flesh  That to is a theory that cannot be proven.

We shall return to how we were before being made flesh,ie,born of woman. Rumor, theory.

What kind of bodies do the angels have right now? Flesh and bone, but in the realm of the Spirit.

Christ was transfigured before returning back to Heaven. But while transfigured, He still had a human body.

The change at the last trump spoken of by Paul is us going from flesh to spirit,those who have already died have made that change,those who are alive at the coming of Christ will be changed to like those that Christ brings with Him  You are simply wrong in this theory. It is not at all what the bible teaches.

Those who come back with Christ aint coming back to pick up no flesh,the flesh is nothing but dust,and to dust it shall return...   This is ENTIRELY unscriptural. But you will continue to teach this false doctrine.

You call what I post unscriptual,yet yu never post a scripture to refute it,so I'll leave yu with 3 things yu must know or yu will never truely understand the Word

 

1-One must understand that there was an age b4 the one we are in now

2-One must understand what really happened in the garden 

3-one must understand that satan returns b4 Christ

 

Without these,well.will just leave it at that

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, n2thelight said:

You call what I post unscriptual,yet yu never post a scripture to refute it,so I'll leave yu with 3 things yu must know or yu will never truely understand the Word

 

1-One must understand that there was an age b4 the one we are in now

2-One must understand what really happened in the garden 

3-one must understand that satan returns b4 Christ

 

Without these,well.will just leave it at that

All silliness: Satan never left. Once he usurped Adam's lease, he has remained the god of this world. The day is coming soon when Satan loses. The rapture will come before this time, however.

I BELIEVE in dispensations.