Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Jacob had two brides and he worked 7 more years for the second, chosen bride.

God has one bride that comes down out of heaven...she consists of both the old and new testament saints. The angel told John to come hither and he would show John the bride, the lamb's wife...He saw ONE BRIDE, consisting of both old and new testament saints...12 foundations for the 12 apostles and 12 gates for Israel...She comes down only one time and that is the second coming when he comes with ALL HIS SAINTS

[garee]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

How about any that support your claims?  So far, you haven't.  And don't worry about what I believe.

The interpretation is self interpreting .its was Jesus that calls us His brothers and sisters .

What kind of support would make you approval?

It would appear many look to the temporal demonstration of God using the temporal things seen dying flesh and blood to show the invisible power of God  in creation. .  and not what the demonstration as a shadow points to the cross or symbol . 

The Lamb of God literally slain from the foundation of the world  the six days the father did work before he rested eternally .

One demonstration of the work Christ labor of love that has been finished is all that was promised.

God is not a man . 

[FreeGrace]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

FreeGrace said: 

One thing that seems not to be considered is the number of believers in "The Bride", or the "church".  Many pre-tribbers say 'Jesus will come for His church'.  Yet, it's been over 2,000 years now and there are many many believers from the NT that have died and are NOW in heaven. 

Pre trib does not agree that the bride consists of both old and new testament saints...they don't even include all the new testament saints much less include the Old

My point wasn't even about the OT saints.  Only the NT saints, which are called "The Bride".  My point is about the total number of NT saints when Jesus comes back to earth.  Of the total number, those still alive and survive the trib will be just a small fraction of the number of saints who have already died and are in heaven now and will return with Jesus.  Pretribbers seem to think "The Bride" or "The church" is still on earth waiting for Jesus.  Not so.  The vast majority are already in heaven.

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

...trib saints are new testament saints...pre trib set a new 'end of the age' marker at the pre trib rapture...John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary, which is a primary pre trib advocate stated the following:

The end of the age will be at the second coming  which will be the end of the age for everybody, believers and non believers.

Well, John W is wrong.  It appears he has no understanding of the new heaven and earth, or even the MK, which follows the Second Advent.  Sad.

In fact, there are several "end of the age".  The Second Advent is the first one, since all believers will be glorified and immortalized with their resurrection bodies and will certainly be quite different than the surviving unbelievers from the trib.  Then, the next "end of age" will be the battle of Gog and Magog at the end of the MK, where all unbelievers still alive will be fried by fire from heaven.  Then follows the GWT judgment, and all unbelievers are cast into the LOF.  That ends Rev 20.  Rev 21:1 begins with a new heaven and earth.  And that "age" will never end.  It is called eternity.

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

   But yes the spirit returns to God who gave it...also true with OT saints as well as those who die during the tribulation.

Bottom line:  every saved person from Adam forward, OT and NT alike, "belong to Him".  And all of them will be resurrected 'when He comes'. 1 Cor 15:23

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes those that are alive and remain...as it states...the beast makes war against the saints and prevails against them UNTIL the Ancient of Days came...he would have completely killed them all if it wasn't that Jesus cut short the days for the elects sake...but pre trib does not admit the 'church' or the elect is being killed during this time but it is still the church and its still the elect that is being killed.

Depending on what Rev 6:8 refers to, whether geography or population, combined with Rev 9:15, about HALF of the entire world's population will have been killed by the various wraths poured out on earth.  At the current level, that is about 4 billion people.

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, when the Son of man shall Come...(Second coming) THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory...this is the same event Daniel saw...'I beheld till the thrones were cast down (Second Coming) and the Ancient of Days did sit (The Son of Man, Jesus) ...the judgment was set, and the books were opened. People sometimes wonder how the sheep and goat judgment was based on feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and so forth...but when you add what Daniel saw into the mix, that the books were opened then it brings in more clarity on how they were judged.

The timing of when the "books were opened" is at the GWT judgment, which is after the MK, when ALL unbelievers will be judged according to their works/activities/etc.

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

   Pre trib talks about a Bema in heaven, however there is no judgment of the saints ever shown in heaven...its on the earth...also the marriage feast takes place as you said at this time...Is. 25:6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

It only makes sense to evaluate all believers at the same time, which will be at the Second Advent after the trib.

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

   There is a great conversion of the nations that takes place at this time and God invites everybody to the feast...Israel is restored, death is swallowed up for the believers as they are in glorified bodies, however the rest of the earth remains in natural bodies during the Mk....

   Blessed are they that are called to the marriage supper...the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying 'Alleluia ; for the Lord God omnipotent reigns...The whole world is rejoicing that The God of Heaven is now ruling on the earth..!

Amen!

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, garee said:

The interpretation is self interpreting .its was Jesus that calls us His brothers and sisters .

What I'm talking about is a verse that is UNAMBIGUOUS.  That means the words are very clear and cannot be twisted to mean anything other than what was said.  That's not true of many verses.  Where are your UNAMBIGUOUS verses that support what you say?

3 hours ago, garee said:

What kind of support would make you approval?

Verses that are UNAMBIGUOUS.  Do you have any?

3 hours ago, garee said:

It would appear many look to the temporal demonstration of God using the temporal things seen dying flesh and blood to show the invisible power of God  in creation. .  and not what the demonstration as a shadow points to the cross or symbol . 

What is your point here?  It doesn't fit the discussion.

3 hours ago, garee said:

God is not a man . 

This is a foolish statement.  Jesus IS God.  God's Son, in fact.  Denying that is foolish.

Rom 1-

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 

2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 

3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,

Rom 9:5 - Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Both 1:3 and 9:5 establish that Jesus is humanly Jewish.

However, v.9 PROCLAIMS athat Jesus is the Messiah, "who is GOD over ALL".

It is BLASPHEMY to claim that Jesus isn't God.

Will these verses satisfy you?  If not, there's plenty more.

Heb 1:8 - But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Here, God the Father describes His Son as "O God".

If you still won't believe the fact that Jesus was both fully human and fully Deity, then I'm not interested in any more discussion with a blasphemer.

[garee]

31 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

What I'm talking about is a verse that is UNAMBIGUOUS.  That means the words are very clear and cannot be twisted to mean anything other than what was said.  That's not true of many verses.  Where are your UNAMBIGUOUS verses that support what you say?

Verses that are UNAMBIGUOUS.  Do you have any?

What is your point here?  It doesn't fit the discussion.

This is a foolish statement.  Jesus IS God.  God's Son, in fact.  Denying that is foolish.

Rom 1-

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 

2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 

3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,

Rom 9:5 - Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Both 1:3 and 9:5 establish that Jesus is humanly Jewish.

However, v.9 PROCLAIMS athat Jesus is the Messiah, "who is GOD over ALL".

It is BLASPHEMY to claim that Jesus isn't God.

Will these verses satisfy you?  If not, there's plenty more.

Heb 1:8 - But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Here, God the Father describes His Son as "O God".

If you still won't believe the fact that Jesus was both fully human and fully Deity, then I'm not interested in any more discussion with a blasphemer.

Hi again thanks for the reply

There is no other meaning then what appears it's not a parable.  Whosoever does the will of God the same is the Son on man Jesus's brother and sister and mother .

The bride of Christ made up of sons of God Jesus the first born again of many.

She the bride the church is called the mother of us all .What we will be when we receive our new incorruptible body is not revealed .There will be no procreating, no aging leading toward death . . 

When Jesus said a man (creation ) must be born again as a new creature he was not excusing his own flesh and blood .

Call no man on earth father the spiritual family of God many gods as sons of God 

You said"Jesus IS God.  God's Son, in fact.

Jesus cannot be God if he is the son . The ministry is two working by one. . the Son seen. .  empowered by the father not seen 

The faithless Pharisees accused the Son of man Jesus of blasphemy declaring a mere man claiming to be God.  Jesu as the firstborn again of many gods as sons .

John 10:34-36 King James Version Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods,(plural small g)  unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

[FreeGrace]

23 minutes ago, garee said:

There is no other meaning then what appears it's not a parable.  Whosoever does the will of God the same is the Son on man Jesus's brother and sister and mother.

No, it's not a parable, but Jesus wasn't speaking literally either.  He was speaking about a spiritual family.  Those who believe in Him for salvation are in the family of God, which of course, Jesus is too.  As I proved in my last post.  From Scripture.

23 minutes ago, garee said:

The bride of Christ made up of sons of God Jesus the first born again of many.

He is 'firstborn' because His Father declared Him to be His Son way before the universe was created.

Heb 1:5 -  For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ?

And v.8 -  But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

23 minutes ago, garee said:

When Jesus said a man (creation ) must be born again as a new creature he was not excusing his own flesh and blood .

Of course not.  He was explaining what happens when a person believes in Him as Savior.  The believer is born again.  A spiritual birth.  Making him/her a child of God.

23 minutes ago, garee said:

You said"Jesus IS God.  God's Son, in fact.

Jesus cannot be God if he is the son .

OK, so you have rejected the very clear and unambiguous verses that SAY Jesus is God.

Then, as I said, this discussion is over, as I don't have any desire to deal with those who blaspheme the Person of the Savior.

One last thing:  throughout the NT Jesus is described as the Lord Jesus Christ.

The word "Lord" indicates His Deity.  Jesus indicates His humanity.  And Christ indicates that He is the Messiah.

So, I've proven from Scripture that even God the Father calls Jesus "O God", and you just ignore Scripture and deny that Jesus is God in the flesh.

So we're done here.  Unless you BELIEVE the Scriptures about who Jesus is, I'm not interested in dealing with you any more.

23 minutes ago, garee said:

The faithless Pharisees accused the Son of man Jesus of blasphemy declaring a mere man claiming to be God.

One final thing.  You are doing what the Pharisees did.  They did NOT believe He was God, and believed that was a blasphemy of which death was the penalty.  And they were wrong.  

So, who is the blasphemer?  Those who DENY that Jesus is the Son of God.

What makes you human?  You were born of your father, a human.

Who is Jesus' Father?  God the Father.  He was born of the Holy Spirit, who is the 3rd Member of the Trinity.

It appears you also deny the Trinity as well.  

Good bye.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Well, John W is wrong.  It appears he has no understanding of the new heaven and earth, or even the MK, which follows the Second Advent.  Sad.

What is sad is not knowing what John Walvoord was referring to.  His discourse was about Matthew 24,25  The Olivet Discourse.  The end of the age as described here.  The end of the Age prior to the Second Coming.  He is a bit more advanced than most of us combined.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[FreeGrace]

16 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

What is sad is not knowing what John Walvoord was referring to. 

You mean he was that unclear??

16 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

His discourse was about Matthew 24,25  The Olivet Discourse.  The end of the age as described here.  The end of the Age prior to the Second Coming.  He is a bit more advanced than most of us combined.

Very smart people can also be very wrong in some of what they think.

[NConly]

46 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

1 hour ago, garee said:

You said"Jesus IS God.  God's Son, in fact.

Jesus cannot be God if he is the son .

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[farouk]

36 minutes ago, NConly said:

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

@NConly Indeed, Philippians 2.6 confirms that the Lord Jesus, 'being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God'.